Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[WilliamL]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:00 PM, choir loft said:

EVERY SINGLE approximation of the future rests upon the rapture and its relationship to the Tribulation.

Some argue one way and others argue another way.  Nobody seems to be convinced of anything - except a few people, including me.  Those 'few people' are Jews.

The Tribulation has already happened.

Consider the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:7 who called a terrible future period "a time of Jacob's distress." Other translations use the words 'trouble' or 'tribulation'.  The reference to Jacob is to future Jews.

The prophet Daniel refers to a 'week of years' that's almost universally interpreted to mean seven years in length.

Jesus is quoted in Mark 13:19 as saying, "...those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again"   Key words of understanding here are intended to predict the seven year period of Tribulation for the Jews would only happen ONCE.

From 1938 to 1945, a period of 7 YEARS, the Holocaust destroyed the lives of most of the European Jews at that time.  The population of Jews in Europe has never recovered to its pre-WW II levels.

Most protestants view eschatology in the same way as the old fable "The Emperor's New Cloths".   In the fable, the Emperor didn't wear any clothing at all, but had been persuaded that his nakedness was covered by invisible robes.   The moral of the story is obvious, but applicable to many who appreciate Biblical authority, but who do NOT study the Bible nor history.  They stand before the world naked as the day they were born when they pronounce their false interpretation of the Tribulation.  Everybody knows how stupid their story is except the ones who preach it.

The final nail in the coffin of rapture story tellers is the idea that the rapture comes before, during or after the tribulation - nobody seems able to make up their addled mind about the timing.  In his book, FUTURE GLORY, Ed Hindson goes out on a very thin limb and declares that the Tribulation will happen after the rapture.  That's not possible because the Tribulation has already happened.  Everybody is still eating dinner at home these days. Nobody is enjoying an honors banquet in heaven - yet.

Mr. Hindson also falsely claims the rapture will usher in the end of the church age.  Unfortunately for Mr. Hindson's theory the church age HAS ALREADY ENDED too.

The church age ended on June 6, 1967 when the IDF liberated the entire city of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.  Luke 21:24 quotes Jesus' prophecy of future events when Christ says, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."  

Jerusalem was liberated by the IDF on June 6, 1967.  On that day the times of the gentiles were fulfilled.   What does that, as well as the timing of the Tribulation, mean in terms of human history and its future?  Obviously a lot of people, including Mr. Hindson are really wrong about a great many things. 

What we see in action these days is a preponderance of antisemitic church dogma that supporters refuse to let go of.   Like the Emperor's new cloths they'd rather live naked lives of fantasy than to study the Bible and watch the signs of the times (as Jesus recommended).  

What's next for mankind?   We will have to watch and see.  Certainly the myths concocted by numerous church con artists will not teach us anything.

Watch the sky.   Jesus will appear soon.  Of that I am certain.  Exactly when remains to be seen....but fools will continue to insist upon their mistaken predictions - as the pharisees also did before Jesus' first advent.

Some things never change.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...  (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Even though you copied George's post, you apparently either did not read it, or choose to ignore  what it said:

"If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position."

Since you are not such an advocate, this is not the place for you to post your opinion about the timing of the rapture.

[choir loft]

23 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Even though you copied George's post, you apparently either did not read it, or choose to ignore  what it said:

"If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position."

Since you are not such an advocate, this is not the place for you to post your opinion about the timing of the rapture.

BY WAY OF REMINDER, the thread is a defense of the false doctrine of the Rapture.  

My post responded to it by presenting a reasonable argument stating the Tribulation HAS ALREADY HAPPENED...including proofs both historic and scriptural.  Since rapture is typically linked to the Tribulation, rapture cannot have happened either before, during or after the Tribulation because the Tribulation is already an historic fact.  The rapture is not!

No opposing arguments consisting of logic, documentation and appropriate scriptural exegesis have been offered by any other post here mostly because Augustinian ideology disallows it.  In other words, most Christian eschatology is antisemitic.

There's a great difference between amateurish and professional approaches to eschatology....as are most evaluations of scripture.

Most evangelical types use the Bible as a sort of playground ... aimlessly wandering from one topic to another without a shred of logical continuity.  When they encounter a studied approach to a topic they react exactly the same...instead of presenting an alternative argument the objectionable post is either denied, censored or criticized as being unBiblical ... without explaining why.  

This is typical behavior for Biblically illiterate types whose education is limited to Sunday school, popular novelizations or YouTube presentations.

If there is a problem with my post, please explain why.  Let's explore the subject instead of vilifying the words, which are entirely true and accurate.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (Isaiah 6:9-10) 

Edited May 1 by choir loft

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

EVERY SINGLE approximation of the future rests upon the rapture and its relationship to the Tribulation.

Some argue one way and others argue another way.  Nobody seems to be convinced of anything - except a few people, including me.  Those 'few people' are Jews.

The Tribulation has already happened.

Consider the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:7 who called a terrible future period "a time of Jacob's distress." Other translations use the words 'trouble' or 'tribulation'.  The reference to Jacob is to future Jews.

Shalom, choir loft.

Actually, the Tribulation is already happening. It's been happening since the First Century A.D!

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

The prophet Daniel refers to a 'week of years' that's almost universally interpreted to mean seven years in length.

And, this is a problem. One should NOT link the "Tribulation" with the Last Week of Daniel 9. That's wrong. I know it's "almost universally interpreted" that way, but it messes up one's understanding of Daniel 9:27 (and 26)!

The MESSIAH is the one who fulfilled the prophecies of Daniel 9:27!

First, look at the verses again:

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. 

25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks (7 x 7 = 49), and threescore and two weeks (62 x 7 = 434): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks (> 62 x 7 = > 434) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (Romans) of the prince that shall come (Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (70 A.D.); and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week (1 x 7 = 7): and in the midst of the week (1/2 x 7 = 3-1/2) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

But, people don't read it this way. However, the subject of the verbs in 9:27 must go back to the closest masculine singular noun in the passage that is NOT in a Hebrew noun construct state (or in English, the object of a prepositional phrase). Thus, the "he" in verse 27 CANNOT be referring to the "prince that shall come." So, equating "the prince that shall come" to the "he" in verse 27 is the major, critical error that most make.

Here's how the SCRIPTURES fulfill each of these predicates:

 

27 AND HE (THE MESSIAH) SHALL CONFIRM THE (DAVIDIC) COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK (1 X 7 = 7): ...

Look at how David was anointed by Judah and Israel in becoming king:

2 Samuel 2:1-11 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the LORD, saying,

"Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah?"

And the LORD said unto him,

"Go up."

And David said,

"Whither shall I go up?"

And he said,

"Unto Hebron."

2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. 4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah.

8 But Abner the son of Ner, captain of Saul's host, took Ishbosheth the son of Saul, and brought him over to Mahanaim; 9 And made him king over Gilead, and over the Ashurites, and over Jezreel, and over Ephraim, and over Benjamin, and over all Israel. 10 Ishbosheth Saul's son was forty years old when he began to reign over Israel, and reigned two years. But the house of Judah followed David. 11 And the time that David was king in Hebron over the house of Judah was seven years and six months.

2 Samuel 5:1-5 (KJV)

1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying,

"Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, 'Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel.'"

3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel. 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, andhe reigned forty years. 5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.

So, David was king over Israel 40 years, 7+ years in Hebron over Judah and 33 years in Jerusalem over all Israel. And, Yeeshuwa` too was to be king over Judah (king of the Jews) for 7 years, as his ancestor David was. But, the elders of Judah - the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees - didn't want Him to be their King! So, they CUT HIM OFF, killing Him instead!

 

 ... AND IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK (1/2 X 7 = 3-1/2) HE (THE MESSIAH) SHALL CAUSE THE SACRIFICE AND THE OBLATION TO CEASE, ...

The time of the offer of the Kingdom to the Jews (the "Ministry") by Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was 3-1/2 years. One can deduce this by the passovers that occurred in the Gospels. The fourth and final Passover was near the time of His death (on the Day of Preparation). But, His death was the FINAL Sacrifice to be accepted by God.

Hebrews: 10:1-18 (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,

"Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure." 7 Then said I, "Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God." (Psalm 40:6-8)

8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein"; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days," saith the Lord, "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

So, after the death of the Messiah, the "sacrifices" that the priests offered had no more efficacy!

 

... AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS HE (THE MESSIAH) SHALL MAKE [IT] DESOLATE, EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION, AND THAT DETERMINED SHALL BE POURED UPON THE DESOLATE.

This we see in Matthew 23! The first part of the chapter is a description of the "overspreading of abominations" performed by the elders of Judah - the "Separatists" or "Pharisees" and by the priests that served in the Temple as the copiers of the scrolls - the "scribes!" Then, at the end of the chapter, Yeeshuwa` said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Thus, the Jews ARE "the Desolate." They are the ones left desolate by the Messiah Himself until the "consummation"; that is, the "conclusion!" Forty years later after the Messiah's death and resurrection, the Temple was destroyed.

The "antichrist" is NOT found in Daniel 9!

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

Jesus is quoted in Mark 13:19 as saying, "...those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again"   Key words of understanding here are intended to predict the seven year period of Tribulation for the Jews would only happen ONCE.

Again, this "Trbulation" or "days of distress" is NOT talking about a "seven year period!" It's been going on since the First Century, and will continue until the Messiah returns. The WHOLE 1,000-YEAR PERIOD since the Messiah left them "Desolate" is "the time of Jacob's trouble." It's ALL the trouble the Jews have experienced across Europe and Asia over the last 1,000 years!

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

From 1938 to 1945, a period of 7 YEARS, the Holocaust destroyed the lives of most of the European Jews at that time.  The population of Jews in Europe has never recovered to its pre-WW II levels.

This is just a single incident among all the inquisitions, pogroms, Crusades, and terrorism that they have experienced over the years. And, it is ALL because they rejected their KING!

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

Most protestants view eschatology in the same way as the old fable "The Emperor's New Clothes".   In the fable, the Emperor didn't wear any clothing at all, but had been persuaded that his nakedness was covered by invisible robes.   The moral of the story is obvious, but applicable to many who appreciate Biblical authority, but who do NOT study the Bible nor history.  They stand before the world naked as the day they were born when they pronounce their false interpretation of the Tribulation.  Everybody knows how stupid their story is except the ones who preach it.

The final nail in the coffin of rapture story tellers is the idea that the rapture comes before, during or after the tribulation - nobody seems able to make up their addled mind about the timing.  In his book, FUTURE GLORY, Ed Hindson goes out on a very thin limb and declares that the Tribulation will happen after the rapture.  That's not possible because the Tribulation has already happened.  Everybody is still eating dinner at home these days. Nobody is enjoying an honors banquet in heaven - yet.

Here's where the matter becomes simple: Since the Tribulation has been happening since the First Century, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a "pretribulational rapture" or even a "mid-tribulational" or "pre-wrath" rapture. We are fast approaching the END - the CONSUMMATION - when our Lord will return. And, Yeeshuwa` said it in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:24-28 (KJV)

24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

This "rapture" will occur AFTER the Tribulation. And, this is the SAME "rapture" that is shown in ...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Most misunderstand these verses because (1) they fail to understand they are the same as Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and Luke 21:27-28, and/or (2) they fail to understand that we are "souls" or "air-breathing creatures," and there is no continuity of existence between one's death and his or her resurrection. They will also make the mistake of thinking "that God brings those who have died WITH Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus")" is the trip from heaven to earth instead of from the grave where they were buried to where Yeeshuwa` will be and on to the Middle East!

 

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

Mr. Hindson also falsely claims the rapture will usher in the end of the church age.  Unfortunately for Mr. Hindson's theory the church age HAS ALREADY ENDED too.

The church age ended on June 6, 1967 when the IDF liberated the entire city of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.  Luke 21:24 quotes Jesus' prophecy of future events when Christ says, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."  

Jerusalem was liberated by the IDF on June 6, 1967.  On that day the times of the gentiles were fulfilled.   What does that, as well as the timing of the Tribulation, mean in terms of human history and its future?  Obviously a lot of people, including Mr. Hindson are really wrong about a great many things. 

Well, you're going to think I'm "wrong," too, then, because we're still IN the "times of the Gentiles" which is the time when Gentiles still trample Jerusalem. Jerusalem is NOT YET delivered from the Gentiles, for the Old City is still in four parts - the Jewish Quarter, the Muslim Quarter, the Armenian Quarter, and the Christian Quarter - and the larger city of modern Jerusalem is considered an "International City."

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

What we see in action these days is a preponderance of antisemitic church dogma that supporters refuse to let go of.   Like the Emperor's new cloths they'd rather live naked lives of fantasy than to study the Bible and watch the signs of the times (as Jesus recommended).  

I agree with you on these points.

12 hours ago, choir loft said:

What's next for mankind?   We will have to watch and see.  Certainly the myths concocted by numerous church con artists will not teach us anything.

Watch the sky.   Jesus will appear soon.  Of that I am certain.  Exactly when remains to be seen....but fools will continue to insist upon their mistaken predictions - as the pharisees also did before Jesus' first advent.

Some things never change.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...  (Isaiah 6:9-10)

Again, I agree.

[WilliamL]

On 5/1/2024 at 1:53 PM, choir loft said:

BY WAY OF REMINDER, the thread is a defense of the false doctrine of the Rapture.  

Again, what George established this thread to be: 

On 4/30/2024 at 2:12 PM, WilliamL said:

"If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, [then] use this thread..."

You are acting in defiance of this condition for "use" of this thread. Defiance, and the pride that it derives from, is of the devil.

You have every right to start your own string with your argument, but not to hijack this one.