Guest shiloh357 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Jesus, as God, is the king of the universe and He is sovereign over it all, but the reign of Jesus in the Millennium will be an intolerant reign. The Bible says He will rule with a rod of iron, but we don't see that today. The world is getting worse and worse and worse, and given the OT and NT descriptions of the millennial reign, the way Jesus will enforce Kingdom laws in a strict an absolute way, the world should be getting better and better. As Ezra points out, if we are going to assign the present age as being the millennium, that argument does more to diminish the power and sovereignty of God than to exalt him. If this is the millennial reign it is a colossal failure. To make this the Millennium is to bring a reproach upon Christ, rather than bring glory to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole W. Posted July 12, 2015 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 13 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/29/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 12, 2015 Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. The saints are required on earth for the Israelites they will be ruling over & guiding & teaching .. notice the language .. "judging" .. it is an ongoing process of guidance the saints are providing along with our Lord, again, they are needed here on earth. Anyway, it is in this earthly kingdom where Christ's throne of glory will be set up & based : Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And when is this throne of glory set up? Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: At the 2nd coming. Quote People take the text in Revelation 20:6, they "shall reign with Him (Christ) a thousand years." You have to be able to establish where Christ is to be able to reign with Him. Scripture tells us, He will reign in Jerusalem in the restored kingdom & from Jerusalem the Lord will reign over the earth with His resurrected saints watching over & guiding the human Israelites in the same capacity the angels work in the world today .. it does not mean the resurrected saints cannot traverse between heaven & earth, but they will have their duties to perform here on earth where they will spend most of their time. I receive the same understanding as you in these scritures of Christ's rule and reign with the Saints chosen and which qualify for the first and most blessed Resurrection, as they will be bringing healing and teaching to God's people that did not Resurrect. Also, in response to the mention of the Saints traversing between heaven and earth, I have received and believe that they will do just that in the same manner of Christ when He came to earth and appeared to the disciples. He on earth was in His resurrected body, but when He would assend to heaven, He would dissapear into His spirit body in the Heavenly realm. I believe the Saints will be able to do the same, as in the Resurrection, we will be as the Angels of God. Luke 20:34-36 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Hi Nicole, Nice to "meet you" .. obviously I'm glad you see the same on this & am also glad that you quoted Luke : The resurrected into spirit : Luke 20:34-36 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. And these below who are during the same millennial period who are obviously not "physically" the same as the above group .. yet they are blessed : Isaiah 65 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Isn't our Lord beautifully merciful !! Regards. Nice to meet you as well Serving, Yes, our Lord is wonderful!! Amen!! The God of Restoration!! I would like to post Isaiah 62 in regards to our conversation: Isaiah Chapter 62 Next >> Viewing the Standard King James Version. Switch to the 1611 KJV Isaiah Chapter 62 or view a Isaiah 62 parallel comparison. 1For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 12And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. God Bless You in Christ Our Lord 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted July 12, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Hi Kan & Shiloh357, We, the Body of Christ WILL NOT be reigning ON the earth, EVER. There are NO scriptures for this & it is NOT God`s purpose for the Body of Christ. Shiloh, if you would like a soap-box debate on this I would gladly discuss/debate with you. Since we are both pre-tribbers then we will not have that obstacle to deal with. I`m sure we can both learn from each other, bro. Marilyn. Rev 226 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Its the sinful nations that Jesus will rule over, and faithful Christians will have power over. Where do you think this will occur? What "world" shall the saints judge in the future:1 corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Hi Argosy, Good scriptures there telling us what the Body of Christ will do, BUT it does not say where they are doing this. We need to know God`s purpose for the Body of Christ & then that will bring clarity. Note - the Queen of England has power `over` Australia & how we govern, but she (& the power she represents) does not live in Australia. Marilyn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2015 Yes, our Lord is wonderful!! Amen!! The God of Restoration!! I would like to post Isaiah 62 in regards to our conversation: Isaiah Chapter 62 Next >> Viewing the Standard King James Version. Switch to the 1611 KJV Isaiah Chapter 62 or view a Isaiah 62 parallel comparison. 1For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. 6I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, 7And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. 8The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: 9But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness. 10Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. 11Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 12And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. God Bless You in Christ Our Lord Amen Nicole Those scriptures are very powerful. This is why we stand for the truth, to show what God has to say, straight from his mouth. ..And the scriptures cannot be broken. If any man love the truth he will read and not ignore. God bless you, I would love to hear more from you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted July 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) To assert that Christ is presently ruling over this earth when everything is getting more and more evil DOES NOT BRING GLORY TO GOD OR TO CHRIST. Indeed if an unbeliever hears this, he will simply mock Christ and dismiss Christianity as fantasies of the first order. No Christian should deceive himself or others by claiming that the Lord Jesus Christ is ruling over a mess (whether political, economic, or religious). The Bible clearly reveals that when the Lord Jesus Christ truly reigns on earth, every kind of sin and evil will be abolished from this earth, and all evildoers will have been detroyed and consigned to Hell. Those who wish to confirm this should study the Scriptures for themselves. Ezra I do not mean to cause you distress. I am simply sharing what I find to be true after very carefully searching the scriptures to see if dispensationalism is true - and this after firmly believing it for over 30 years. I would have then been just as passionate in its defense as you are now. But a very careful examination of scripture, while my examination was being tested and tried by a dispensationalist in open discussions for over a month where I began it hoping to find it was indeed true, I discovered that the underpinnings for dispensationalism just don't exist the way we have been told they do. I would be happy to share what I learned. I am saddened by your rejection of the plain words of John here. Are you saying John lied? Are you saying the words of John are not true? I hope not for that would me that they are thus not inspired scripture and thus the book of Revelation does not belong in the canon of scripture. That is the logical end of such a position. If I did not explain this here, I know I did elsewhere. The apocalyptic language begins with his vision. The first verses of the book are a preamble and thus, are not apocalyptic in and of themselves. They introduce the work. As such, John is speaking literally at this point, and that is easily ascertained - he tells us that Jesus is the faithful witness the first begotten from the dead These are all literally true. And then, continuing in one continuous thought, one continuous idea, who Jesus is right then, for all these descriptions are joined by the Greek conjunction Kai which signifies a continuation of the same line of thought rather than a change in direction, he says Jesus is - right then: the ruler of the kings of the earth. These are the plain words of scripture. If we reject them we do so at our own peril. If accepting the plain meaning of these words contradicts what you believe to be true, who do you think is most likely in error? John? Or you? And contrary to what has been claimed, even though we all acknowledge that Jesus, as God, is the king of the universe and He is sovereign over it all, that is not what John is focused on here. John focuses on the very fact that Jesus is reigning over the kings of the earth right now as of the time those words were penned. If that contradicts what we believe, then what we believe is wrong, even if we don't understand why. Submitting to God's truth even if we don't understand is a matter of obedience and dying to self. Edited July 13, 2015 by thereselittleflower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Jesus did not become the ruler of the kings of the earth at his resurrection. Jesus' reign over the kings of the earth began in Genesis, as Jesus has always reigned in that sense. The Millennium is a prophetic earthly reign, where Jesus will physically reign on the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted July 13, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2015 Chapter 19, shows that when Christ returns that all flesh will be destroyed. There are no nations left after that event. Where does it say that "all flesh will be destroyed"? Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. If there is no flesh left, then who is Christ going to rule over? .....with his saints? There has to be a population left over. Christ work is not finished yet, only the system of "Babylon". That old system that consisted of Satan's empires is gone, and the men he chose to do his dirty work will not be in control anymore. This is the take-over by Christ himself with his saints, who are judged loyal to rule with him according to righteousness. Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. There will be a lot of death yes, especially those armies that gathered in Armageddon to war the saints. All of them will be killed. This is the winepress that Christ treads. All those armies that gathered there against him. Also men will be killed all over the earth outside that war area with hailstones and the great earthquake etc. But not every single person will be killed, only the very wicked. They will not share in the 1000 year peace. Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. The remnant (left over) free and bond, small and great of all the nations will be destroyed (the very wicked) Besides the text that you have quoted above can be read like this "that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years" are over. He won't be tempting any nations until the resurrection of the wicked, which by the way is the second resurrection. It doesn't make sense what you are saying? Are you saying that he cannot tempt the nations because there are no nations left? and that he can only tempt them at the 2nd resurrection? If so how does that compute? If the nations continue, and people die who are righteous, they will need to resurrected at some time, so there will be a third resurrection. but the Bible says there will only be two resurrections, a blessed one the first, and a sorry one, the second. No, that's why there is a 2nd resurrection also. This is where the goats are separated from the sheep. All the goats are thrown into the lake of fire (2nd death) and the sheep will be resurrected. All those who did not know Christ will be judged according to their deeds (the books) Some, believe it or not, will receive mercy if their deeds are not all bad. God looks into the heart. Many were born before Christ and did not know him, or children and babies who died young. And those who come to Christ during the millennium will be judged differently. Jews and gentiles. They are written in the Lambs book of life. Going by the context of Revelation 18 and 19, I would say that the 1000 years are Satan bound to a desolate earth, with no one to tempt, until the second resurrection. If we are hungry for truth, we will find that Christ's job is not finished after he destroys Babylon, but has more to do and that starts at the millennium with restoring Israel. The gentiles (survivors) will hear truth and without distraction from the enemy, and many many souls will worship the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Plenty more generations to come, hence the reason for the 1000 years. I'm sorry but you have a lot of catching up to do brother. Please don't take offence, but you are miles behind. The most important thing is that you catch up. Sorry for being so blunt, but time is short. There's a lot of information in the OT that will make the picture complete. One thing at a time, I know that you have so much to write, but it's too much at one time for me. You asked how all flesh would die? All flesh is burned. Revelation 19:20. that is all those who made or received the mark of the beast. That is all the world, because all the world, except the faithful, worship the beast. Billions of human beings are quite prepared to kill the few innocent in order to please who they think is God. Anyway, we don't want to go on a tangent to the thread, even though all these subjects are obviously connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted July 13, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hi Kan & Shiloh357, We, the Body of Christ WILL NOT be reigning ON the earth, EVER. There are NO scriptures for this & it is NOT God`s purpose for the Body of Christ. Shiloh, if you would like a soap-box debate on this I would gladly discuss/debate with you. Since we are both pre-tribbers then we will not have that obstacle to deal with. I`m sure we can both learn from each other, bro. Marilyn. Rev 226 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Its the sinful nations that Jesus will rule over, and faithful Christians will have power over. Where do you think this will occur? What "world" shall the saints judge in the future:1 corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Hi Argosy, Good scriptures there telling us what the Body of Christ will do, BUT it does not say where they are doing this. We need to know God`s purpose for the Body of Christ & then that will bring clarity. Note - the Queen of England has power `over` Australia & how we govern, but she (& the power she represents) does not live in Australia. Marilyn. A very good point Marilyn. Finding the correct context for verses which seemingly support certain doctrines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted July 13, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) If Jesus was reigning over the earth at the time of Genesis, then this would even more strongly and clearly indicates symbolic nature of the words in the book of Revelation where John tells us Jesus reigns on earth for a thousand years (a thousand years being a figurative, symbolic number with the symbolic meaning of a very long time). The claim is that the book of Revelation tells us that Jesus will physically reign on earth for a thousand years. We've already seen, given the very nature of the book of Revelation as being part of the apocalyptic genre, the phrase "a thousand years" is highly symbolic and so must be understood according to its symbolic meaning, which is not a literal 1000 years, but rather a very long time. Now what about the claim of an earthly reign of Christ? Does the book of Revelation tell us Christ will physically reign on earth for a thousand years? Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. There is nothing there that says Christ physically will live and reign on earth. Again, John tells us : Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Again, there is nothing there that says anything about a physical reign of Christ on earth. The earth itself is not even mentioned. To take that Christ is to physically reign on earth from these passages means one must read into these passages something that is not there. This is known as Eisegesis - which is where one reads into the scripture something that is not there. In fact, when Jesus is confronted with the question of the nature of his Kingdom, he says this: John 18:33 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" John 18:36 Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence. Again, In the preamble of the book, where John is speaking plainly, he tells us Christ is reigning over the kings of the earth now as of the time he penned those words. And as Marylin has pointed out, reigning over a place and people does not necessitate one's physical presence, just as the Queen of England reigned over the people of Australia without being physically present there. Not only does this passage not say there is literal 1000 year reign of Christ, for this number is symbolic and thus must be understood according to its symbolic meaning - so the 1000 years here is not a literal 1000 years needed for dispenationalism to be true, but also this passage actually says nothing about a physical earthly reign of Christ, which dispensationalism also requires. The more we closely examine these claims of dispensationalism, the more we see the scriptures do not actually say what the dispensationalists claim. Edited July 13, 2015 by thereselittleflower 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted July 13, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hi Kan & Shiloh357, We, the Body of Christ WILL NOT be reigning ON the earth, EVER. There are NO scriptures for this & it is NOT God`s purpose for the Body of Christ. Shiloh, if you would like a soap-box debate on this I would gladly discuss/debate with you. Since we are both pre-tribbers then we will not have that obstacle to deal with. I`m sure we can both learn from each other, bro. Marilyn. Rev 226 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Its the sinful nations that Jesus will rule over, and faithful Christians will have power over. Where do you think this will occur? What "world" shall the saints judge in the future:1 corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Hi Argosy, Good scriptures there telling us what the Body of Christ will do, BUT it does not say where they are doing this. We need to know God`s purpose for the Body of Christ & then that will bring clarity. Note - the Queen of England has power `over` Australia & how we govern, but she (& the power she represents) does not live in Australia. Marilyn. Whether we reign on the earth or over the earth its unrealistic that we will not have access to our subjects that we rule and judge. I believe the saints rule from the heavenly Jerusalem, because scripturally our home is in heaven. Yet there is also the "camp of the saints" by Jerusalem according to Rev 20. Its more likely that we will have access to both the heavenly Jerusalem and the earthly Jerusalem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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