What is the difference in the rapture and the second coming?

[Marilyn C]

I might also add that at the moment the Father is making the enemies Christ`s footstool.

 

`The LORD (God the Father) said to my Lord (Christ), "Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool." (Ps. 110: 1)

 

Then when that happens we are told that Christ will be given specific authority from the Father to `rule in the midst of your enemies!` (Ps. 110: 2)

We are shown this awesome time when Christ is given such power, - when the Body of Christ has reached maturity in Him. (Rev. 3: 21)

Then Christ will be officially given the title deeds of the earth, His inheritance & will start to bring judgment upon each power, authority & rule, a step at a time.

 

`For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet - all rule & all authority & power. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25)

 

When it says `then comes the end,` this has the connotation of setting out to a conclusion.

 

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

Scripture doesn't contradict Scripture, true, but you are a poor exegete of Scripture and that's where the problem lies.    You don't know how to handle prophecy or the book of Revelation.

 

First of all,   Jesus has ALWAYS reigned over the Kings of the earth.   That has been true from the beginning. There is never a time that Jesus was not the sovereign God of the universe.   Jesus reigns, but the Milennium is special prophesied reign of Jesus physically on the earth.   It isn't the case that Jesus' millennial reign started at some point in the past.   It is a future earthly reign and Jesus will on the throne of David, which is always an earthly throne.   Every time the throne of David is mentioned in Scripture it is on the earth, not in heaven.

 

Jesus currently operates as our High Priest and that the office he operates in at this time.  The millennial aspect where Jesus will  reign over the Kings of the earth from a restored Israel is still future.

 

Littleflower doesn't understand what "literal"  means.   Everything about interpretation is "literal."   Even when symbolic imagery is used we look for the literal meaning intended by the author that exists behind the symbol.    All interpretation is literal or else, what's the point??    Authors want to be understood literally.   Interpretation is for the purpose of arriving at what the author wanted us to understand.   We read Scripture in the light of the object that the author has in view.

 

Revelation is not symbolic to the degree that we can all come up with our own arbitrary notions about the text.   

 

II Peter 1:20-21 says that no Scripture is of private interpretation, yes.   But the word for interpretation used by Peter is the word for "opinion" in Greek.  But that needs to be understood in the light of v. 21.    Peter's point in those two verses, is that no prophecy in Scripture is derived from the private or personal opinions of the prophets, themselves, but they wrote as they were led to write.   The OT prophetic writings were not based on the opinions, ideas, imaginings, intellect or impulse of the prophets.   They were inspired by the Holy Spirit and spoke/wrote as the Holy Spirit directed them.

 

Peter is not talking about the process of interpretation or literary analysis.   Peter's overarching point was that the Word of God was more sure to him, more real than when he was on the Mount of Transfiguration and heard the voice of God with his own ears.

 

The book of Revelation is not hard to understand IF you are not approaching it with a personal agenda and are not going with preconceived notions that you want to impose on the text.

 

Neither the binding of Satan, nor the thousand years are symbolic and are not written in symbolic imagery.  Part of your problem begins with the assumption that simply calling something symbolic makes it so.

 

The account of Satan being bound has no textual indicators that it is symbolic and neither does the reign of Jesus for 1,000 years on earth have any symbolic imagery whatsoever.   The Bible always tells you when it is being symbolic.  Fortunately, God didn't leave it to us to arbitrarily assign symbolism.

 

Jesus did not either bind or destroy Satan at the cross.   The Bible doesn't say that.  Littleflower goes through a whole lot of theological gymnastics to make a claim that the Bible never makes.

 

Satan was defeated at the cross, but Satan was neither destroyed or bound at the cross.   How do we know that Satan was not destroyed or  bound at the cross?  The Bible informs us  of Satan's post crucifixion activities;

 

1.  Satan plants lying hypocrites in the Church - Acts 5:3

2.  He schemes against Christians (II Cor. 2:11; Eph. 6:11)

3. He disguises himself as an angel of light to deceive people, including Christians (II Cor. 11:14)

4. He attacks Christians (II Cor. 12:7; Eph. 4:27)

5. Christians must continue to resist Satan (James 4:7)

6. Satan hinders those in ministry (I Thess. 2:18)

7. He leads Christians astray (I Tim. 5:15)

~ John McArthur's Commentary on Rev. 12-22

 

Satan cannot bind anyone if he continues to be as active as the Bible says he is.   What littleflower does is what most false teachers do.   They grab verses from different parts of the Bible, ignore their literary context and then string them together like lights on a Christmas tree.

 

The text of Rev. 20:1-3 is not symbolic and has no internal textual indicators that symbolic imagery is intended.   Symbolism is clearly seen.   Satan is bound and cannot continue to operate in this world at that point in the future.  

 

Satan is not bound today and our salvation is NOWHERE in Scripture predicated on Satan being bound.   Littleflower is simply mishandling Scripture assigning arbitrary values to the text where they are not warranted and is mixing contexts of different passages.

 

The context of Matt. 12:28-29 had to do with Jesus authority and the source of his authority to cast demons given that a few verses earlier, Jesus had been accused of casting out demons by the power of the prince of demons.   That's the context.  It has nothing to do with salvation being predicated on the binding of Satan.   Satan doesn't have to be bound for us to be saved.  That is not even close to the point Jesus is making.   

 

A further indicator that we are talking about a literal Millennium is the resurrection of the Martyred believers in the Great Tribulation.   John mentions these people in Rev. 20: 4-6.   They are raised at the beginning of the 1,000 years.   The Greek word for resurrection is anastasis and refers only to a physical resurrection.  It is the same word used for the bodily resurrection of Jesus.   John also mentions that the resurrection of unbelievers will not occur until the 1,000 years are over.   So the millennium is book ended by two separate resurrections, both of which will be physical in nature.  The first is a resurrection unto eternal life and the second is a resurrection to eternal death.   So this also speaks to a 1,000 year period that is delineated by two separate, physical resurrections.

[Kan]

And in regards to the earthly setup of a kingdom, sequence is important. For example it may say that the saints reign on earth, true, but when? At the end of the thousand years when the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven or during the 1000 years that Satan has no one to tempt because they are all dead? - Someone pointed out from scripture that the wicked will be destroyed when Christ returns. 

 

True, but if we stay on earth and not in heaven, (as Jesus promised saying "that where I am you may be also" - in heaven and not on earth), then there is nothing here on earth for us but rubble, seeing that the earth is not renewed until after the 1000 years?

 

There are a whole lot of events that people have included, post and prior to the return of Christ, that it is impossible to find agreement. This cannot be the fault of scripture can it? I have heard about 7 different theories on the resurrection, and countless versions of the rap and trib.

 

I am thinking of the ancient Jews who were on the look out for a messiah, which when He came, was not recognized or accepted, but scorned because He did not fit into their idea of an earthly set up.

However, there were some people, not Jews, who knew about the time of His birth according to ancient pieces of the Torah, and there were others like the shepherds who God invited to His birth.

 

The various departments of the Jewish leaders also had conflicting views as to how this messiah thing should go. Is this the problem of modern Christendom, and that they are in danger of not being ready for His return at all?

 

There are many doctrines and points of view that are intertwined here, concerning the return of Christ and there after.

 

But so far as the thread is concerned, are there any texts which specifically only belong to the rap theory, which cannot be applied to the overall return of Christ? Can we begin on this one point?

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Kan,

 

When Jesus returns and destroys the wicked, it is important to note that the people who accepted Jesus during the Tribulation will enter the Millennial Kingdom, but they will not have glorified bodies at that point.   They will be like we are now.   Those people will continue to have children during the millennium and we know that because after the millennium, satan will be released for  short time and offspring of the Trib survivors will form a huge army that John says is beyond numbering. 

 

The description of the millennium in other parts of the Bible tells us that there will be much better living conditions and people will live a very long time, more like they did before the flood.   They will have huge families and the population will grow exponentially as a result.  These people are people who still have a sin nature and when Satan is released, he will deceive them into joining him in one last attempt to assault the kingdom, but they will all be consumed by fire instantly.   It won't be battle; it will be slaughter.

 

We will be reigning with Jesus on earth during the millennium.  Much of the earth will be restored after the tribulation, though it will likely still bear some of the scars.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Kan & Shiloh357,

 

We, the Body of Christ WILL NOT be reigning ON the earth, EVER. There are NO scriptures for this & it is NOT God`s purpose for the Body of Christ.

 

Shiloh, if you would like a soap-box debate on this I would gladly discuss/debate with you. Since we are both pre-tribbers then we will not have that obstacle to deal with. I`m sure we can both learn from each other, bro.

 

Marilyn.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Marilyn C

[FresnoJoe]

We, the Body of Christ WILL NOT be reigning ON the earth, EVER....

 

There are NO scriptures for this & it is NOT God`s purpose for the Body of Christ.....

 

~

 

Never?

 

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:1-11

[thereselittleflower]

These passages are highly symbolic.   They are found in the most symbolic book of the bible.      

 

Christ is reigning now over the kings of the earth just as the apostle John tells us in Rev 1:5.

[thereselittleflower]

Regarding claims about literalism in ones approach to reading scripture

 

Literal means:   

 

in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical: the literal meaning of a word. 

 

And symbolic means:

 

 Serving as a symbol: Roses are symbolic of love. 

 

 

There is a very big difference between Exegesis and Eisigesis 

 

Exegesis and eisegesis are two opposing views to the study of the Bible.

Exegesis refers to an explanation of the biblical text based on an investigation of the language, history, culture, and context of a passage in its original setting.

Eisegesis refers to interpretation of a passage of Scripture based on a subjective understanding of the text.

Read more:http://www.compellingtruth.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html#ixzz3feKgjCjF

 

 

As  I have been consistently advocating, we must approach scriptural interpretation by investigating the language, history, culture, and context of a passage in its ORIGINAL setting.   This is how we must approach these passages in Revelation.

 

To come to a proper understanding of what the Apostles Paul reveals,  we must

• study and understand   the context in its original setting, which is that of apocryphal literature in the 1st century, which is filled with highly symbolic language and written to christians. 
• understand how the original language is used, not just a superficial read of an English translation.
• understand the history surrounding this writing - the persecutions and tribulations the christians of the time endured, their need for encouragement and hope to strengthen them
• understand the culture of an ancient people who were quite different than we are.  We must seek not to impose our 21st century mindsets on a people 2000 years removed from us in a completely different culture than ours.

 

Proper exegesis does not seek to impose literal interpretations upon symbolic language, but rather seeks to understand the meaning the symbols are there to convey.

 

Contrary to what some believe, there is actually no such thing as a literal method of interpretation.    If someone believes they must find a literal meaning for everything in the bible, then they are on a wild goose chase, I am sorry to be so blunt.

 

If we look at the principles employed in interpretation of scripture, we will see nothing stating there is a literal principal.  The list is long so I won't copy it here but it can be found here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics

 

Regarding how to approach interpretation of scripture:

 

Techniques of hermeneutics

In the interpretation of a text, hermeneutics considers the original medium^[12] as well as what language says, supposes, doesn't say, and implies. The process consists of several steps for best attaining the Scriptural author's intended meaning(s). One such process is taught by Henry A Virkler, in Hermeneutics: Principles and Processes of Biblical Interpretation (1981):

• Lexical-syntactical analysis: This step looks at the words used and the way the words are used. Different order of the sentence, the punctuation, the tense of the verse are all aspects that are looked at in the lexical syntactical method. Here, lexicons and grammar aids can help in extracting meaning from the text.
• Historical/cultural analysis: The history and culture surrounding the authors is important to understand to aid in interpretation. For instance, understanding the Jewish sects of the Palestine and the government that ruled Palestine in New Testament times increases understanding of Scripture. And, understanding the connotations of positions such as the High Priest and that of the tax collector helps us know what others thought of the people holding these positions.
• Contextual analysis: A verse out of context can often be taken to mean something completely different from the intention. This method focuses on the importance of looking at the context of a verse in its chapter, book and even biblical context.
• Theological analysis: It is often said that a single verse usually doesn't make a theology. This is because Scripture often touches on issues in several books. For instance, gifts of the Spirit are spoken about in Romans, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. To take a verse from Corinthians without taking into account other passages that deal with the same topic can cause a poor interpretation.
• Special literary analysis: There are several special literary aspects to look at, but the overarching theme is that each genre of Scripture has a different set of rules that applies to it. Of the genres found in Scripture, there are: narratives, histories, prophecies, apocalyptic writings, poetry, psalms and letters. In these, there are differing levels of allegory, figurative language, metaphors, similes and literal language. For instance, the apocalyptic writings and poetry have more figurative and allegorical language than does the narrative or historical writing. These must be addressed, and the genre recognized to gain a full understanding of the intended meaning.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics

 

There is no such thing as a "literal" approach to interpreting scripture.   This so-called "literal" approach has nothing to do with proper exegesis of scripture.   When people try to use this so-called "literal" approach to turn what is figurative and symbolic language into literal language, ignoring everything to the contrary, they end up far afield in  gross error.

 

 

 

I have a question for those who believe everything should be interpreted literally

 

 

Why do you still have your hands, and your feet and your eyes?   Why haven't you cut off your hands and your feet yet or plucked out your eyes in obedience to the command of Christ:

 

Matthew 5:29  

"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

 

Matthew 5:30

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

Matthew 18:8

If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

 

Matthew 18:9

"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

 

 

Why have you not yet obeyed these commands of Jesus?

Edited July 12, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Serving]

 

 

 

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

The saints are required on earth for the Israelites they will be ruling over & guiding & teaching .. notice the language .. "judging" .. it is an ongoing process of guidance the saints are providing along with our Lord, again, they are needed here on earth. 

 

Anyway, it is in this earthly kingdom where Christ's throne of glory will be set up & based :

 

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

And when is this throne of glory set up?

 

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

At the 2nd coming.

 

Quote

 

People take the text in Revelation 20:6, they "shall reign with Him (Christ) a thousand years."

 

You have to be able to establish where Christ is to be able to reign with Him.

 

Scripture tells us, He will reign in Jerusalem in the restored kingdom & from Jerusalem the Lord will reign over the earth with His resurrected saints watching over & guiding the human Israelites in the same capacity the angels work in the world today .. it does not mean the resurrected saints cannot traverse between heaven & earth, but they will have their duties to perform here on earth where they will spend most of their time.

 

 

I receive the same understanding as you in these scritures of Christ's rule and reign with the Saints chosen and which qualify for the first and most blessed Resurrection, as they will be bringing healing and teaching to God's people that did not Resurrect. 

 

Also, in response to the mention of the Saints traversing between heaven and earth, I have received and believe that they will do just that in the same manner of Christ when He came to earth and appeared to the disciples.  He on earth was in His resurrected body, but when He would assend to heaven, He would dissapear into His spirit body in the Heavenly realm.  I believe the Saints will be able to do the same, as in the Resurrection, we will be as the Angels of God.

 

Luke 20:34-36

³⁴ And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

³⁵ But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

³⁶ Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Nicole,

 

Nice to "meet you" .. obviously I'm glad you see the same on this & am also glad that you quoted Luke :   

 

The resurrected into spirit :

 

Luke 20:34-36

 

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

 

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

 

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

 

And these below who are during the same millennial period who are obviously not "physically" the same as the above group .. yet they are blessed :

 

 

Isaiah 65

 

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

 

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

 

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

 

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

 

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

 

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

 

Isn't our Lord beautifully merciful !!

 

Regards.

[Serving]

These passages are highly symbolic.   They are found in the most symbolic book of the bible.      

 

Christ is reigning now over the kings of the earth just as the apostle John tells us in Rev 1:5.

 

Hi T.L.flower,

 

Of course Christ has been given all authority & indeed has all authority .. but .. He has not yet terminated this ones stewardship over the world :

 

Luke 4

 

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

 

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

 

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

 

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

Notice Christ did not rebuke Satan's boast over his "stewardship" but instead rebuked whom should be worshipped? 

 

Have you ever rented? By law, the owner can not just come in & kick you out, even though he is the owner, no, there must be just cause to terminate the tenancy first .. either that or wait for the lease to expire .. so until the 2nd coming, Satan still rules over his house (earth's kingdoms) which he boasted of above .. then the Son of the Master of the vineyard will return to take back what is & always was .. His.

 

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

To rule with a rod of iron means a strong rule with swift retribution for dissent .. now compare to what has really been happening which is easily observable in the world around us these last millennia .. unrestrained lawlessness !! 

 

So what has Christ been doing all this time in regards to the unlawlessness? What of His iron rule? Luckily, scripture shines light on this matter .. a small example :   

 

Isaiah 42:14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

 

He has been holding His peace .. opposite to ruling with a rod of iron 

 

He has been still .. opposed to ruling with a rod of iron

 

He has been refraining Himself .. opposite to ruling with a rod of iron

 

BUT .. the time will come when :

 

NOW (at the set time to come) will He cry like a travailing woman .. no more holding His peace

 

He will destroy & devour at once .. No longer is "still" .. & .. no more refraining .. now (at the set time to come) comes the rod of iron.

 

It is impossible to say that Christ has "hands on rule" over this lawless world at the moment, haven't you read the Apostles complaint about the wicked thriving even unto his death? How his evil deeds are not punished in this current world .. no .. this is not the rod of iron period .. this is the holding His peace, being still & refraining Himself period .. that is .. Satan's stewardship .. so no, the Lord is not yet reigning over the earth though He is king over ALL creation .. His creation !!

 

So don't overlook the wicked stewards who are ruling & will continue to rule until the return of the Son of the Master of the vineyard to reclaim that which is already His.

 

Regards.