In general I am coming to believe that most Pastors today are not will

[carlos123]

Let me ask you a question Carlos.  Lets say you wanted to set things right and start a church based on the Bible.  How would that church look?  Lets say you had a group of people that want you to be their Pastor, and you said yes.  How would a typical service be run?  I have noticed a lot of things in the church world that are not consistent with the way the Bible says things should be done, but I have never taken the time to ask any Pastors why they don't follow the Bible in that regard.  I tend to think the church they were Pastoring was done according to the pattern they knew.  People tend to copy what they know.  It is much harder to go against the grain.  What reason do Pastors give you when they say following scripture won't work, and have you thought about starting your own church?

 

Hi Butero, 

 

Forgive me for quoting you at length but I don't want to pick and chose what to respond to in what you said just now (it's a pain under this forum software and I usually copy and paste and pen my response elsewhere and then copy and paste back again but that too is a pain

 

But...here are some responses from me on what you said and asked about. 

 

With respect to being asked to be a Pastor I would say no way.  I don't qualify in character for one (there are still some character flaws in my life to be worked out) and secondly, shepherding is not my gift.  

 

But how would a church look like if it was of the kind I see in the New Testament and perhaps more to the point how would a meeting of the church be like if it went in line with 1 Cor 14?

 

First...let me say this to lay the stage for my description of such. 

 

Jesus is the head.  The only head.  

 

He leads through his Spirit which resides in EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER.  As much as he does in any other of us. 

 

None of us can lay a claim to spiritual anything of value apart from the operation of the Lord in us through his Spirit.  

 

So we, in this hypothetical church, are NOTHING apart from him. 

 

THAT attitude and perspective would be foundational.  Absolutely foundational. 

 

We, you and I and every other Christian in this church are NOTHING apart from him. 

 

That would not be just a trite little Christian saying but a fact we would live out in our interactions with each other. 

 

That alone would solve a whole heck of a lot of problems that we experience in the church of today where some of us seem to think we are more or greater or more needful than others in the body (that includes my own attitude at times).  

 

Elders, prophets, tongues speakers, or whoever...doesn't matter.  We are NOTHING apart from him.  We all are equally NOTHING as brothers and sisters before him.  None of us is so necessary to the life of the church that we are indispensable.  

 

With that said...here is something else. 

 

God wants to communicate with us as his children.  A real being who has thoughts and feelings and wants to express himself. 

 

By his Spirit. 

 

He does not want to communicate through just elders (what many call Pastors but which as I said are not quite the same thing if we are going to stick to what is biblical).  

 

He chooses whom to communicate through by his Spirit as he wills at any time. 

 

We have various gifts.  Gifts which express various aspects of who God is and how he operates.  These gifts express God.  Collectively we express God through these gifts to one another. 

 

A meeting of the church would recognize the above and give the Holy Spirit free reign to speak and express the heart of God THROUGH ANY MEMBER OF THE BODY at ANY TIME.  

 

Subject to certain restrictions. 

 

No more than two or three tongues speakers.  No more than two or three prophets.  Etc.  As described and laid out in 1 Cor 14. 

 

Now on to further thoughts. 

 

God's presence would be experienced in such a meeting where even those from outside would fall and declare that God is really among us (1 Cor 14:24-25). 

 

The problem with today's church practice is that we have lost the experience of God as a LIVING and REAL being in our midst.  

 

We experience (if one can even call it that) his truth.  We experience a relationship with his truth.  We come to know more about him through the teaching.  We sing songs to him.  We mouth a few prayers to him.  Our Christianity today is a matter of the intellect.  An intellectual experience of God through a hearing of his truth is what church meetings today are about I think. 

 

But relationship with God is NOT, NOT, NOT just a matter of the HEAD but one of the HEART also.  

 

Yes...we CAN experience a touch from God through his truth or a traditional church meeting at times.  I am not saying you can't.  I know I have. 

 

But we miss a full experience of God's real presence in our meetings today to the degree that he is not free to express himself through ANYONE of US at ANY TIME. 

 

Why?  Because he is NOT constrained to express himself to us ONLY through the Pastor and ONLY through teaching.  The Lord did not give the church just ONE gift - that of shepherding.  He gave the church many gifts which all express some aspect of who he is.  

 

Regrettably many gifts remain dormant and undeveloped because the people having those gifts are not taught about the gifts properly or given free reign to express them in the meetings of the church today.  

 

Am I making sense?  

 

I am sick, I mean sick of going to traditional church services and standing, sitting, singing, listening, and otherwise on cue and on time in line with the format and program of today's church meeting.  

 

It's like God could be completely absent and the meeting and format of the church service would continue uninterrupted!  

 

That's ridiculous. 

 

I have talked to a lot of Pastors about these things. 

 

They all tell me different things.  Most...it's like most...have blinders on or something.  They just don't see.  Though seeing they don't see and though hearing they don't hear. 

 

I tend to think it's because they are unwilling to do the will of God and are deceived but that may be too simplistic.  

 

I talked to a Pastor today and discussed things at length with him.  Almost two and a half hours.  

 

Wonderful man.  Can't say anything bad about him as a person. 

 

But he honestly and truthfully believes that his church, a Southern Baptist church, is doing what 1 Cor 14 talks of.  I could not believe that he could be so seemingly blind at first but as I listened to him I came to realize that he was absolutely sincere.  He has a good heart.  A right heart before the Lord I think in that he is doing the best that he knows how.  But...he completely misses what I have described above.  

 

I am still processing my conversation with him. 

 

I just don't get it.  How could a man who is so seemingly godly be so blind as to not see what 1 Cor 14 says and how his church does NOT fulfill what is described therein?

 

When I say blind I do not mean in a bad sense as in rebellious blind and deceived.  

 

I mean where he just doesn't see it with a good conscience before the Lord. 

 

I don't know what to make of that.  I tried to explain things to him by suggesting the anology of going out with his wife.  Would he give his wife a bulletin laying out the particulars of their time together where they would say this or that, do this or that, sing this or that, all on cue and on time for whatever time he had laid out ahead of time for their get together?

 

That's the way his church service is.  Absolutely laid out from start to finish.  One could set their clock by the order and timing of things.  It's that set and predetermined and all described in order in the church bulletin.  

 

Absolutely different than what is laid out in 1 Cor 14. 

 

I tried and tried to get him to see what I was saying but to no avail.  He just did not see it and continued to believe that the way they do church IS the way it is described in 1 Cor 14. 

 

I've thought of starting a church but I am no good at starting things in general.  I would need help and God help me I can't find anyone to do this with.  

 

I know there are others around the country that are applying 1 Cor 14 and very successfully.  God is blessing them greatly.  But in San Diego where I am?  Nothing.  Nothing that I know of. 

 

So I remain stuck in the wilderness.  Knowing what God wants but unable to do much of anything about it or at least that is how I feel.  I don't fit into traditional churches...believe me I have tried.  I have nothing to fit into.  Every time I try it fails miserably because my heart is set on what the Word says and what God wants done NOT on what happens in the church of today.  

 

I don't rightly know what to do with myself. 

 

But for now...this Pastor has no problem with me not going to the Sunday service at all - PRAISE GOD - I can't stand Sunday services.  I will be getting involved in a Wednesday bible study as the next best thing to what have described above.  It's either that or...well...nothing else at this point. 

 

Carlos

 

PS.  Which brings me back to the subject that was on my heart when I started this thread.  How can a good man with a right heart before the Lord be so blind to the ways of God?  Pastors in general seem quite blind to me.  Is it that Pastors in general are unwilling to do the will of God?  Or is it something else?  

[Guest shiloh357]

Ezra, Acts 2:42 is a historical account, not theological instruction.  It simply tells us what happened.  Nothing in the scriptures indicate that it was the perfect model to be followed by all believers for all time.

 

Secondly, yes  God has a habit of being very explicit and not just leaving it up to people to figure it out, when there was something he wants and done a certain way. 

[firestormx]

 Which brings me back to the subject that was on my heart when I started this thread.  How can a good man with a right heart before the Lord be so blind to the ways of God?  Pastors in general seem quite blind to me.  Is it that Pastors in general are unwilling to do the will of God?  Or is it something else?

I also have a lot of conversations with God about the current condition of the church. I believe the current role that the " pastor " fills is unbiblical as well. It's like in the bible where Jesus went back to his home town of Nazareth. The bible says he could do no mighty works there except heal a few sick folk because of their unbelief. Now stop and think for a moment. In Nazareth that day, what did you have? You had the presence of God himself ( Jesus ) and the healing of a few sick folk. Why nothing more? Because of their unbelief. Now what happens at almost any church across this world, on any given service, the best of services, If your lucky? If your lucky you have the presence of God himself and maybe , just maybe the healing of a few sick folk. 

 

How ironic that most church services, the best of most church services matches exactly to when Jesus went back to Nazareth and marveled at their unbelief. Now , let's talk about that unbelief for a moment. What was that unbelief in Nazareth that day? Was it believing in nothing? No, it was the fact the would not accept and believe the truth. When I see this and many other things in the bible such as what you point out in this thread , I truly believe that there is no way that most churches are following the truth. I believe like you there are a lot of well meaning people, who have a heart for God. But, something is missing. Something is off. There is just no way things are being done right.  There are many things I could say, but I won't. My reason in writing this is in the hope of encouraging you.

 

Trust in Jesus. Seek Jesus and his truth and his righteousness. Read and study the word, not to confirm or refute a point of view, but to receive God's truth. You are not alone. Be willing to receive correction. Stand in the truth. I will keep you in my prayers. Remember, your focus must remain Jesus, not church, not doctrine, but Jesus.

 

 

God Bless

Firestormx

Joseph

[carlos123]

Hi Joseph (I assume that is your name),  

 

I believe like you there are a lot of well meaning people, who have a heart for God. But, something is missing. Something is off. There is just no way things are being done right.  There are many things I could say, but I won't. My reason in writing this is in the hope of encouraging you.

 

Trust in Jesus. Seek Jesus and his truth and his righteousness. Read and study the word, not to confirm or refute a point of view, but to receive God's truth. You are not alone. Be willing to receive correction. Stand in the truth. I will keep you in my prayers. Remember, your focus must remain Jesus, not church, not doctrine, but Jesus.

 

 

Thanks so much for your encouragement!  Well put and exactly so.  I will take your admonishment to heart!

 

I frankly have little clue as to how it is that I still cling to Jesus Christ as my real Saviour and Lord.  A real being with whom I have relationship.  

 

In view of the state of the church and the Christians.  

 

I don't see Jesus anywhere to be frank with you.  I just don't.  

 

Love like that of Christ is non-existant.  Christianity as I have experienced around about me here is mainly if not entirely about the head.  Head knowledge.  It's like we believe some sort of religious philosophy just like so many other religions.  Our Jesus isn't real.  He is a figment of our religious imagination.  It's not just the state of the church but inward struggles and doubts too.  

 

I don't see Jesus in the people around me who call themselves by his name Joseph. I just don't.  

 

I see a semblance of reality but not the real thing.  The real, sacrificial, all out embrace of the Word as truth with a willingness to live it out and die by it if need be.  Where we are staking everything on it's words as representing a real being and a real heaven.  

 

Instead I see so many who go the way of compromise.  Where they do what is comfortable not what God would will done.  

 

The cost is high.  Too few are willing to follow. 

 

Too few are willing to live by faith in a living God. 

 

I am not saying that I am perfect or that I have arrived.  Far from it.  I stumble and fall and waddle about in my spiritual life like some toddler in diapers.  

 

But I KNOW what is it is like to EXPERIENCE the LIVING God!!!!!

 

I KNOW WHAT THAT IS LIKE!!! 

 

And how greatly and magnificently that can fill my heart to overflowing.  

 

At one time in my life I EXPERIENCED God like that among a fellowship the Lord led me to start in an apartment complex I once lived at.  It was the most unbelievable experience of God and fellowship that I have ever had.  My immaturity destroyed it.  

 

I know what the real thing is like and the present church practice ain't it.  

 

That's what drives me.  That's what keeps me so incredibly discontent with the present and sorely lacking experience of God in the church practices around me. 

 

I've tasted the real thing and there is nothing around me to compare. 

 

I have often wondered as to how what happened happened.  As to what it was that led me to experience the things I did back then.  

 

I have often tried and wanted to repeat things.  Some trick.  Some method.  Some means.  But to no avail. 

 

I have tasted the living reality of God in fellowship with other Christians and I just can't settle for anything less anymore.  Most often I have no idea what to do with myself so I talk things over with the Lord but there are no answers.  

 

Thanks for your encouragement Joseph. 

 

Much appreciated.  

 

Carlos

[Guest shiloh357]

It is amusing to see how many people think they are fit to sit in judgment on how everyone else conducts Church services.

 

 

All I am reading in this thread is, "if everyone would just do church the I think it should be done according to MY reading of Scripture, then everyone would be doing it the right way."   Again, amusing...

[Omegaman 3.0]

Just some observations:

 

We are not in the first century. In the 1st century, the church was the people of God, wherever they were, and they existed in more than one culture. That has not changed in terms of who the real church is.

However, churches (individual, not universal) varied. Typically, there was one per city, the church at Rome, the church at Thessolonica, etc. In some cases, this would be a handful of new believers, gathering in perhaps a home.

Some churches, like the church at Jerusalem, were likely primarily Jewish. At Corinth, likely primarily Gentile, and at Rome, a mixture of the two.

The Jews had a history with God, and more understanding of Him, than people who came from cultures of demonically inspired or human inventions of false God's.

In the case of the Jewish believers, they did not need much instruction on morality or that character of God, but they needed instruction on how God's new work was different from His old, inferior covenent with them, They needed to unlearn a works based system which could not work within human limitation, and learn of the symbolism and prototype, that the old covenant and old rituals portrayed..

The Gentile believers had to unlearn practices of sexual immorality and practices related to idol worship, and how to see the people of God, as brothers and sisters. In fact, that same thing had to be learned between Jews and Gentiles, this went against the understandings of both groups.

All of these people, had previously lived under the trappings and infrastructures of their old religions, No longer did they have the temples, rituals, and hierarchies they were accustomed to. All of this stuff was, for the moment, obsolete, God had wiped the slates clean and begun a new thing, starting from scratch.

He was starting a new building, based on the foundation of Christ, and buildings take time to build, they are not done over night.

In the initial church, there were local bodies, generally under the oversight of an apostle, and locally under the more regular oversight of qualified men of their own congregations.

The church was in it's infancy, and undergoing lots of growing pains.

Is it possible then, that what we see in the book of acts, and in the Corinthian letters etc. is not so much a blueprint of of how the church should be, but a merely a snapshot of what an infant, immature church looks like?

Remember, that these early churches did not have a New Testament  yet, and in some cases, probably not the old Testament either. The book of Hebrews, written to people familiar with the Old Testament, reads a lot differently than the letters to the Corinthians - to a church struggling with carnality.

Romans is to a church were blending Jews and Gentiles into one body under the local legal/military authority of pagans was a challenge.

Maybe, we should learn what these different circumstances teach us in terms of principles and determine how best to apply these principles in our even broader contexts of a world wide church in modern times.

Now we have the canon of scripture, and the whole thing should be a guide for us, not an isolated passage from one book to a single, problem church in Paul's time.

Even in that passage, what is the context? Is that an instruction to the church universal, or is it more likely a specific, dealing with a small body of believers with specific issues to be addressed?

Might this be better applied, to a disorderly home fellowship than to 1st Baptist Church of Anytown, U.S.A.?

 

The Bible contains real doctrine, things that are immutable and not open to being changed. However, does that necessarily mean that everything in it is intended to be seen as a doctrine, and absolute article of faith and practice?

 

Anyway, just some thoughts to ponder as you continue the conversation.

[firestormx]

It is amusing to see how many people think they are fit to sit in judgment on how everyone else conducts Church services.

 

 

All I am reading in this thread is, "if everyone would just do church the I think it should be done according to MY reading of Scripture, then everyone would be doing it the right way."   Again, amusing...

According to my understanding of the bible we are suppose to sound the alarm if we see the enemy coming. We are suppose to speak up if we believe something is being done wrong within the church. It's not about " doing things my way ". That's exactly the problem we are talking about. Everyone is doing things there way and not God's. How many times in the bible does it say most will not follow the right road. How many times does it say that most get it wrong. The reason most will be getting things wrong and go on the wrong road is the same over and over. Doing things there way instead of God's. It not being about a relationship like it should be. I find it so disturbing that the almighty pastor and church are always above being wrong and being in error according to so many. The minute you even suggest that things are being done according to man's tradition and not God's will according to his word everyone loses their mind and the mocking begins. Take the doctrine of tithes for example. I don't know a single church around me that is not teaching the classical church (TV) teaching on tithes. That if you don't pay 10% on everything you get you are stealing from God, and no thief will be in heaven. That is false doctrine. Telling people they are going to hell for not paying tithes is major error. that's not a little thing to me, and every church I know teaches that false doctrine. 

 

I could go on but I hope I have been clear. Shiloh I know you know the word of God and don't need me to teach what it says about the last days and false doctrine. When are we going to stop backing down? When are we going to say enough is enough? What the bible teaches is the truth, not the traditions man has made up or popular culture says is popular. When are we going to put our foot down about false doctrine and call it out for what it is, especially when it is in the church?

[Guest shiloh357]

But we are not talking about false doctrine.   The OP is not talking about false doctrine.   He is talking about how worship services are conducted.  That does not fall under the purview of "false doctrine,"   necessarily.

 

Everyone has their own "biblical" definition of the authority structure of a church, the order and content of worship services  and they want to impose those on everyone else.

 

It really is a form of legalism.

 

The Bible doesn't lay out for us what a church service is supposed to look like.   It gives us the qualifications for deacons and bishops (pastors) but it doesn't lay out what an actual service is supposed to be.

 

There is room for different churches to have their own set of traditions.

[firestormx]

But we are not talking about false doctrine.   The OP is not talking about false doctrine.   He is talking about how worship services are conducted.  That does not fall under the purview of "false doctrine,"   necessarily.

 

Everyone has their own "biblical" definition of the authority structure of a church, the order and content of worship services  and they want to impose those on everyone else.

 

It really is a form of legalism.

 

The Bible doesn't lay out for us what a church service is supposed to look like.   It gives us the qualifications for deacons and bishops (pastors) but it doesn't lay out what an actual service is supposed to be.

 

There is room for different churches to have their own set of traditions.

I disagree. This is about false doctrine. The modern teaching about pastors elevates them to position that is not in the bible. In the bible it is always about the Pastors and elders leading after Jesus ascended not 1 man by himself deciding what is godly and what is not. Most pastors don't even recognize anyone else having any authority in the church but them. They alone have authority, they alone decide what is holy and what is not.The same problem I have with pastors is the same problem I have with the pope. That is not what the bible teaches. I disagree, this is a false doctrine issue.

 

P.S. How can everyone have a different authority structure and all of them be hearing from God? How can everyone be hearing from God and be given so many different answers on this? The answer is everyone can't be hearing from God.  

[Qnts2]

 

But we are not talking about false doctrine.   The OP is not talking about false doctrine.   He is talking about how worship services are conducted.  That does not fall under the purview of "false doctrine,"   necessarily.

 

Everyone has their own "biblical" definition of the authority structure of a church, the order and content of worship services  and they want to impose those on everyone else.

 

It really is a form of legalism.

 

The Bible doesn't lay out for us what a church service is supposed to look like.   It gives us the qualifications for deacons and bishops (pastors) but it doesn't lay out what an actual service is supposed to be.

 

There is room for different churches to have their own set of traditions.

I disagree. This is about false doctrine. The modern teaching about pastors elevates them to position that is not in the bible. In the bible it is always about the Pastors and elders leading after Jesus ascended not 1 man by himself deciding what is godly and what is not. Most pastors don't even recognize anyone else having any authority in the church but them. They alone have authority, they alone decide what is holy and what is not.The same problem I have with pastors is the same problem I have with the pope. That is not what the bible teaches. I disagree, this is a false doctrine issue.

 

P.S. How can everyone have a different authority structure and all of them be hearing from God? How can everyone be hearing from God and be given so many different answers on this? The answer is everyone can't be hearing from God.  

 

 

There are differing forms of church government in Protestant churches. There are three main types of church government: episcopal, prebyterian and congregational.

 

The Episcopal give the 'Bishop' the authoritative role. Some churches give a lot of power to the Pastor, so he is actually acting more as a Bishop in the episcopal system

 

The Presbytarian has the power in the elders.

 

Congregation has each local church as independent, and ideally is more democratic.

 

Just for balance, I have attended churches or I am familiar with churches which elect by vote their pastors and churches where the elders select candidates and bring a select few up for vote. In these cases, the elders rule and can be a large issue for pastors attempting to serve. The pastor might be fired if they oppose the opinions of the elders or most influential members of the congregations. 

 

So, it is not pastors, but rather people who can be 'power over other people' seekers.