Why is Eternal Life a Free Gift?

[enoob57]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2015 at 10:27 PM, thereselittleflower said:

Ezra if you understood the subject you would not ask a simple yes or no. Your question offers a false dichotomy.  It is like asking if you have beat your wife again today.   I will not treat your false dichotomy as valid. 

The hostility you have consistently demonstrated towards Catholicism and myself personally for being Catholic and not agreeing with you, as well as your refusal to have a discussion,

 

but demand instead a black and white answer in a manner that continues such hostility, 

 

tells me there is nothing helpful that can come of continuing this with you here under such circumstances. As far as twisting words, you have done nothing but twist the words of the Catholic Church in any conversation I have had with you, constantly misrepresenting what the Catholic Church teaches.

I love you, but I will not continue to indulge you.

The reason TLF we want direct answers is because The Bible gives them! Because you have began in a system of >The Bible is
not the final authority< but other is equal~ bringing subjectivism to an objective reality as written down for all ages to know...you will
not engage at this level but demand your religious beliefs which is scattered, diffused, and obscured from the intent God has written.
Imagine your lack when you stand solely before The Lord "The Living Word" and your requirements of popery and oral tradition to
also be present and they are not... Love, Steven

 

[Secret__]

So when it comes to salvation, what the Bible says isn't really what Catholics hold to.   That's why sacraments, and confessions to priests, and sprinkling (which is NOT baptism) and acts of penance are necessary for salvation in RCC doctrine.

Shiloh, you are absolutely correct. And this false doctrine NULLIFIES the free gift of eternal life by God's grace through faith in Christ and His perfect finished work of salvation. In other words, it is a rejection of the Gospel of Grace.

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast. ¹⁰ For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

The key is that grace from God is not normally received until we are humiliated:

 

When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

http://biblehub.com/proverbs/11-2.htm

 

Without being humiliated (breaking down of self), no magnitude of faith matters.  One way to be humiliated is for past evil deeds to become manifest:

 

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

http://biblehub.com/john/3-20.htm

 

 

A past evil deed cannot be exposed (manifest) to God because God already knows our past evil deeds:

 

Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-13.htm

 

 

We only have to give an account for all deeds that are not exposed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2015 by Secret__

[Secret__]

 

Grace can be difficult to understand (of the finite soul).  Self must be broken down in order to qualify for grace:

6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+4%3A6&version=ESV

As standard human conceptions (not Jesus nor Mary), we are born in a state of pride.  The reason is because of original sin.  As we get older, most of us remain in the state of pride, even if we have original sin removed, because of other sin we have committed in the mean time that has not been removed.  During this time of aging, sin usually accumulates, unless sin is removed.  Sin separates us from God.  One way we can initially receive grace from God, is if we are humiliated in a certain way.  It is possible to think we are humble and not be humble.  We are really in a trick bag until we realize what humiliation is.  Self can fool self.  We are our own worst enemy.  Not too many of us (narrow gate) are forced into or choose humiliation.  Humiliation is one of the worst feelings we can ever have, but it is the way to the light through Jesus.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2015 by Secret__

[Ezra]

Secret,

I believe you wanted to say "humbled" but said "humiliated".  Big difference.  God is not interested in humiliating people.  That is the attitude of evil men.  But God is very definitely interested in humbling every human being.  How are we humbled when we hear the true Gospel?

1. We hear that we are sinners in God's eyes and that there is none righteous, no not one.

2. We hear that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, therefore the only righteousness which counts with God is the righteousness of His only begotten Son -- the Lord Jesus Christ.

3. We hear that except we repent and be converted we shall all likewise perish (as did Sodom and Gomorrah)

4. We hear that if we do not come to Christ "as little children" He will not accept us.

5. We hear that if we do not receive Him as both Lord and Savior, He will not save us.

Thus we are THOROUGHLY HUMBLED and have no choice expect to cast aside our human pride at the foot of the Cross and recognize that we are but worms, dust and ashes -- that we are sinners on our way to Hell, and that Jesus is THE ONLY WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. That's when the publican cried (and when we must cry) "God, be merciful to me a sinner". That's when all our morality and good works have to be thrown into the rubbish heap to be burned.

[Secret__]

I am referring to humiliation inflicted upon self by exposing past evil deeds we were responsible for in order to become truly humble (not fake humility where we are fooled into thinking we are humble) so that we can receive grace from God.  The document explains a little of how Jesus suffered humiliation but there are likely many documents.  I am mostly going by experience.

The Humiliation of Christ

.

.

Humiliation

To humiliate means to “injure the dignity of.” Although we may view humility as a virtue, to humiliate someone would generally be considered inappropriate. This morning we will examine what has come to be known as the humiliation of Christ. What makes the humiliation of Christ appropriate is that it was something He inflicted upon Himself for the good of humanity and the glory of the Father. 

.

.

http://www.branchofhope.org/documents/remchristianity/17_The Humiliation of Christ.pdf

 

 

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

Ezra asked "Are Sacraments NECESSARY for salvation?"

Little flower responded "Your question offers a false dichotomy"

By necessity this answers the question as Yes they are one and the same for the Sacraments are salvation.  That is what I hear.  Correct me if I misunderstand how a false dichotomy would apply to the question otherwise. Thank you.

There is no yes or no answer in a false dichotomy.   If you come up with a yes from my response then you aren't understanding the intrinsic nature of a false dichotomy.  There is no logically valid yes or no answer to the question asked.

 

 

[gdemoss]

Ezra asked "Are Sacraments NECESSARY for salvation?"

Little flower responded "Your question offers a false dichotomy"

By necessity this answers the question as Yes they are one and the same for the Sacraments are salvation.  That is what I hear.  Correct me if I misunderstand how a false dichotomy would apply to the question otherwise. Thank you.

 

There is no yes or no answer in a false dichotomy.   If you come up with a yes from my response then you aren't understanding the intrinsic nature of a false dichotomy.  There is no logically valid yes or no answer to the question asked.

 

 

You labeled it a false dichotomy therefore the onus is on you to provide evidence that it is not an either or answer but that there are other options ruled out by the questions presentation.  I would like to hear your answer please.

[thereselittleflower]

Ezra asked "Are Sacraments NECESSARY for salvation?"

Little flower responded "Your question offers a false dichotomy"

By necessity this answers the question as Yes they are one and the same for the Sacraments are salvation.  That is what I hear.  Correct me if I misunderstand how a false dichotomy would apply to the question otherwise. Thank you.

 

There is no yes or no answer in a false dichotomy.   If you come up with a yes from my response then you aren't understanding the intrinsic nature of a false dichotomy.  There is no logically valid yes or no answer to the question asked.

 

 

You labeled it a false dichotomy therefore the onus is on you to provide evidence that it is not an either or answer but that there are other options ruled out by the questions presentation.  I would like to hear your answer please.

i have nothing to prove gdemoss.    The answer requires a discussion.     I attempted to engage in a discussion, and asked if he even knew what the word "sacrament" means.    He refused the discussion.

If you would like an answer then I would say the same to you.    

And let me be very clear.  I am not interested in being treated as a hostile witness on the witness stand.   So if that's your level of interest, as it was Ezra's, we won't be discussing this here.   However, if you are interested in an honest, open discussion I will be happy to engage with you.

 It is important that we be on the same page in order to address questions about sacraments.

Do you know what the word sacrament means?     

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[gdemoss]

Ezra asked "Are Sacraments NECESSARY for salvation?"

Little flower responded "Your question offers a false dichotomy"

By necessity this answers the question as Yes they are one and the same for the Sacraments are salvation.  That is what I hear.  Correct me if I misunderstand how a false dichotomy would apply to the question otherwise. Thank you.

 

There is no yes or no answer in a false dichotomy.   If you come up with a yes from my response then you aren't understanding the intrinsic nature of a false dichotomy.  There is no logically valid yes or no answer to the question asked.

 

 

You labeled it a false dichotomy therefore the onus is on you to provide evidence that it is not an either or answer but that there are other options ruled out by the questions presentation.  I would like to hear your answer please.

i have nothing to prove gdemoss.    The answer requires a discussion.     I attempted to engage in a discussion, and asked if he even knew what the word "sacrament" means.    He refused the discussion.

If you would like an answer then I would say the same to you.    

And let me be very clear.  I am not interested in being treated as a hostile witness on the witness stand.   So if that's your level of interest, as it was Ezra's, we won't be discussing this here.   However, if you are interested in an honest, open discussion I will be happy to engage with you.

 It is important that we be on the same page in order to address questions about sacraments.

Do you know what the word sacrament means?     

 

 

 

I am interested in honest friendly discussion.  I admit to having been harshly critical of you and therefore you have reason to be skeptical. 

The word sacrament in its basic meaning means mystery and is used by some to describe a method believed to be ordained by Christ to receive grace.  Within the word we see roots of sacred as well as sake so the general term deals with that which is good and something beneficial to the receiver.

[Secret__]

 

Since the following quote is in the OP, It appears you agree that eternal life is at least associated with repenting:

 

5. Eternal life is therefore a free gift to those who repent and believe the Gospel (1 John 5:1-13).

 

Eternal life and associated repenting, etc., is therefore associated with permanently receiving the Holy Spirit:

 

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

http://biblehub.com/acts/2-38.htm

 

With the Blood of the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit will never leave us after we qualify to receive grace:

 

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--

http://biblehub.com/john/14-16.htm

 

Nicodemus (a natural man) was a believer of Jesus but he wasn't born again yet (a supernatural man).  Being born from above is at least when we permanently receive the Holy Spirit.  There are many believers that are not born from above:

 

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

http://biblehub.com/john/3-3.htm

 

In the same chapter where Jesus explains to Nicodemus that we must be born again, Jesus explains that we at least require that our past evil deeds become manifest.  I envision Nicodemus all of the sudden had blood rushing to his face realizing that he must humiliate self since he sensed Jesus already knew what his past evil deeds were by looking into his eyes:

 

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3

 

Coming to the light (see above passage) is clearing our conscience through humiliation by exposing our past evil deeds.  Exposing past evil deeds is not possible to God for God already knows our past evil deeds.

 

Humility is like light being observed as a wave or a particle.  Observing it changes the state.  Humiliation guarantees humility.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2015 by Secret__