Hell Needs Clarification

[Kan]

The scripture I have been reading KJV, makes it very clear that death is an unconscious state. I know about 179 texts, which I think prove that, both from the Old and New Testament. It seems like the whole world differs with that of the Bible, and clings to the Pagan view of everlasting consciousness. And most religious institutions are not exempt from this mistaken belief either. 

Physical death is an unconscious state for the body, not your spirit.   Your spirit will go on living into eternity, into the dateless eternal future.  But you will be spiritually separated from God and that is what spiritual death is.  The Bible demonstrates spiritual death as a conscious sate.

 

Thankyou, you have made that very clear, and I believe that you can provide a number of texts to back that up, but I am wondering if the Bible says it anywhere like you have, or if it has to be deduced through numerous texts combined? Would there be about 3 texts that could be linked?

[Guest shiloh357]

The scripture I have been reading KJV, makes it very clear that death is an unconscious state. I know about 179 texts, which I think prove that, both from the Old and New Testament. It seems like the whole world differs with that of the Bible, and clings to the Pagan view of everlasting consciousness. And most religious institutions are not exempt from this mistaken belief either. 

Physical death is an unconscious state for the body, not your spirit.   Your spirit will go on living into eternity, into the dateless eternal future.  But you will be spiritually separated from God and that is what spiritual death is.  The Bible demonstrates spiritual death as a conscious sate.

 

Thankyou, you have made that very clear, and I believe that you can provide a number of texts to back that up, but I am wondering if that Bible says it anywhere like you have, or if it has to be deduced through numerous texts combined? Would there be about 3 texts that could be linked?

Matt. 8:12, Matt. 13: 42-42, Luke 16:19-31, Rev. 19:4-11 and Rev. 20:10. 

[Kan]

Thanks. 

The only texts there about consciousness in after death are in Luke 16 in what I consider a parable, using a popular belief about the afterlife.

Rev 20:10 could be taken to mean a day and night, as well. But I can see how you have joined the concepts together to make a case.

Can you see that this concept is in conflict with texts, in say Ecclesiastes, where it is says there is no consciousness in death? Or the "sleep" which Jesus spoke of, or say the experience of the real man Lazarus who was raised from the dead (after his body had started to decompose), who had nothing to say of his after death experience?

But I did ask for only a few texts, so...

How can you be certain that man has a spirit/soul which has consciousness and lives on?

[enoob57]

Thanks. 

The only texts there about consciousness in after death are in Luke 16 in what I consider a parable, using a popular belief about the afterlife.

Rev 20:10 could be taken to mean a day and night, as well. But I can see how you have joined the concepts together to make a case.

Can you see that this concept is in conflict with texts, in say Ecclesiastes, where it is says there is no consciousness in death? Or the "sleep" which Jesus spoke of, or say the experience of the real man Lazarus who was raised from the dead (after his body had started to decompose), who had nothing to say of his after death experience?

But I did ask for only a few texts, so...

How can you be certain that man has a spirit/soul which has consciousness and lives on?

Because God is the telling of Lazarus means that all parts must be the 'IS' or else even in a parable He is supporting the 'is not'....
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 John 2:21
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
KJV
Love, Steven

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Saved.one.from.grace, Enoob57 and Shiloh

No my friend let me show what is illogical and I'm going to go in depth here to get to a firm understanding of our topic and contradictions.

 

Greek word thanatos which simply means “death” (Strong 35)—the absence of life or opposite of life, hence, the cessation of conscious existence.

Thanatos means death of the body.  It does not mean a cessation of conscience existence.  I guess your a believer in soul sleep.  To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.  Also read what Jesus said to the thief on the cross.  See the link below:

Thanatos

Also, thanatos is a Greek mythological person where a lot of these beliefs may have filtered in.  It is unlikely that the original manuscripts were written in Greek.  More likely they were written in Aramaic and translated into Greek.  It's interesting you quote Paul by backing up his beliefs with a quote from James.  You do realize they are two different people don't you?

If the original manuscripts were written in Aramaic and translated to Greek, then please explain why the texts concerning words that needed to be interpreted were needing to be interpreted from Aramaic to Greek.  They give the Aramaic word then say being interpreted as followed by the Greek word.  

Why would someone want us to believe the original manuscripts were in Aramaic?  What is the gain?  Confusion and infighting would be a gain for Satan for sure.

Paul is the most learned of the early gospel and epistle writers. It is unclear how many languages the apostles spoke and what was the common tongue of Israel at that time, Aramaic being one of them and Koine Greek being another.  They were mostly fishermen, not scholars.  We don't have the original manuscripts.  What we have are a wealth of copies, some Greek, some Latin, et al.  Do the research.  All the fragments we have are copies with errors; copying errors.  By having so many sources, more than Homer's Illiad for example, we are able to eliminate the errors and come to an accurate copy of God's word in the New Testament.  See the books of Dr. Gary R. Habermas and Dr. Darrell L. Bock for details, or visit their websites.

Dr. Darrell L. Bock

Dr. Gary R. Habermas

I don't think you understood me.  I don't know how to explain it clearer.  If we were sitting at coffee it would be easy to show but here It is not translating very well.  The 'way' the text is written lends credibility to them being written in Greek originally and not Aramaic for the words needing translated we Aramaic and not Greek.  If it we Aramaic originally then the words needing translated would be Greek but we don't find that.  So I determine that the originals were in Greek. Unless you have a suitable answer to this dilemma I cannot see what you have proposed as truth.  Thank You!

Why would Hebrew fishermen write in Greek to convey the gospel message to the masses of Jews?  What was the language of the land when the apostles started preaching?  I wasn't there so I have to rely upon experts in the field of biblical languages and translations.  The truth is every fragment we now have has copying errors.  I don't believe we have conclusive proof they were copying from original letters/documents, or were they copying from other copies?  We know gospels and letters were spread from one church to another.  The work of biblical scholars has eliminated the copying errors and have arrived at several translations, in different languages.  I admit it is speculation on my part that the original documents either no longer exist or have not been found yet.  I believe the NASB is the most accurate translation currently available, but I don't discount the biblical scholars who created the HCSB, ESV, NIV, NKJV and KJV.  My home library has more than two dozen bible translations, about the same number of commentaries and dictionaries, and a wealth of scholarly books on our most precious bible.  You believe the NT was written in Greek; I believe at least a portion of it was written in Aramaic.  But whatever the truth is, I believe the NT can be taken literally and should be, and is free of errors.

[Kan]

Thanks. 

The only texts there about consciousness in after death are in Luke 16 in what I consider a parable, using a popular belief about the afterlife.

Rev 20:10 could be taken to mean a day and night, as well. But I can see how you have joined the concepts together to make a case.

Can you see that this concept is in conflict with texts, in say Ecclesiastes, where it is says there is no consciousness in death? Or the "sleep" which Jesus spoke of, or say the experience of the real man Lazarus who was raised from the dead (after his body had started to decompose), who had nothing to say of his after death experience?

But I did ask for only a few texts, so...

How can you be certain that man has a spirit/soul which has consciousness and lives on?

Because God is the telling of Lazarus means that all parts must be the 'IS' or else even in a parable He is supporting the 'is not'....
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 John 2:21
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
KJV
Love, Steven

Loving Steven, a parable does not have to be true in the literal sense, that's what parable means in part. Jesus told many parables, which often puzzled the disciples.

[enoob57]

Thanks. 

The only texts there about consciousness in after death are in Luke 16 in what I consider a parable, using a popular belief about the afterlife.

Rev 20:10 could be taken to mean a day and night, as well. But I can see how you have joined the concepts together to make a case.

Can you see that this concept is in conflict with texts, in say Ecclesiastes, where it is says there is no consciousness in death? Or the "sleep" which Jesus spoke of, or say the experience of the real man Lazarus who was raised from the dead (after his body had started to decompose), who had nothing to say of his after death experience?

But I did ask for only a few texts, so...

How can you be certain that man has a spirit/soul which has consciousness and lives on?

Because God is the telling of Lazarus means that all parts must be the 'IS' or else even in a parable He is supporting the 'is not'....
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 John 2:21
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
KJV
Love, Steven

Loving Steven, a parable does not have to be true in the literal sense, that's what parable means in part. Jesus told many parables, which often puzzled the disciples.

Then you have God speaking even in parable form lie... this is not The God of the Bible and it is yours to explain to God when you are before Him... Love, Steven

[Kan]

Thanks. 

The only texts there about consciousness in after death are in Luke 16 in what I consider a parable, using a popular belief about the afterlife.

Rev 20:10 could be taken to mean a day and night, as well. But I can see how you have joined the concepts together to make a case.

Can you see that this concept is in conflict with texts, in say Ecclesiastes, where it is says there is no consciousness in death? Or the "sleep" which Jesus spoke of, or say the experience of the real man Lazarus who was raised from the dead (after his body had started to decompose), who had nothing to say of his after death experience?

But I did ask for only a few texts, so...

How can you be certain that man has a spirit/soul which has consciousness and lives on?

Because God is the telling of Lazarus means that all parts must be the 'IS' or else even in a parable He is supporting the 'is not'....
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 John 2:21
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
KJV
Love, Steven

Loving Steven, a parable does not have to be true in the literal sense, that's what parable means in part. Jesus told many parables, which often puzzled the disciples.

Then you have God speaking even in parable form lie... this is not The God of the Bible and it is yours to explain to God when you are before Him... Love, Steven

Luke 13:19 The kingdom of heaven is like a great tree with birds in it. Will you be sitting on a branch in a great tree when you go to heaven? 

Jesus said "I am the vine ye are the branches..." Will you have grapes growing on your arms?

Parable, illustration, symbol, example. 

If we want to take parables seriously we may end up with many new doctrines, as we already have. 

 

 

[manuelf324]

Position 2 of hell is not biblical thats what jehovah witnesses believe. I have family who believe in either no hell or you suffer till it's paid in full. Hell is called debtor prison our sin is a curse from God so the only cure can be from God which Was Christ blood. If you know the 1st law of thermodynamics you know scientifically you're soul can't die this is why Romans 1 :20 say you're without excuse God's evidence of existence is everywhere and undeniable 

Edited October 28, 2015 by manuelf324

[Guest shiloh357]

Thanks. 

The only texts there about consciousness in after death are in Luke 16 in what I consider a parable, using a popular belief about the afterlife.

Rev 20:10 could be taken to mean a day and night, as well. But I can see how you have joined the concepts together to make a case.

Can you see that this concept is in conflict with texts, in say Ecclesiastes, where it is says there is no consciousness in death? Or the "sleep" which Jesus spoke of, or say the experience of the real man Lazarus who was raised from the dead (after his body had started to decompose), who had nothing to say of his after death experience?

But I did ask for only a few texts, so...

How can you be certain that man has a spirit/soul which has consciousness and lives on?

Ecclesiastes isn't talking about spiritual death.  It is talking about physical death.    The Bible doesn't say that Lazarus didn't speak of his experience.  It simply doesn't record the conversation if it did take place.  

The Bible is clear that man has a spirit that will live on after death.   I don't see how you can even ask such question given that we will live eternally with Jesus if we are Christians.