Pastors vs. Husbands

[another_poster]

As far as I know, assault was a crime in this nation before feminism came along.  Whether or not those laws were enforced in marriage is another matter, but they needed to be.  1 Corinthians states that in marriage, the husband doesn't have control over his own body, and neither does the wife when it comes to sexual relations.  That means there is no Biblical right to refusal by either, so if they are following scripture, you can't possibly have rape in marriage.  I looked into this as a result of a previous debate, and the rape exception in marriage was based on 1 Corinthians and existed in every state until the 1970s.  The other issue is the difficulty that exists in trying to prove a rape in marriage took place.  I oppose the change in the law. 

Husbands are not told to submit to their wives.  We are told to submit to each other in the sense of assisting each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord.  The mutual submission argument to make null and void the wife's command to submit to their husbands is made up.  There is no scripture that says "husbands, submit to your wives."  It doesn't exist, and if you are going to claim it does, please provide that KJV scripture.  I would love to examine it.  Husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loved the church, so he is the example.  We see him loving the church in dying for us, but he never gave up his Lordship.  As a matter of fact, he made it clear he is master and Lord.  I can easily back all of this up. 

Ok then back it up. Back up where the bible says women should be allowed to be beaten senseless by their husbands. Did you really think I would not notice that you chose to ignore that part of my post and instead only focus on one bit you think you can address. That various things were not enforced in marriage was a fact. It was only because of feminism that they started to charge men with assault for beating up their wives. That women were not allowed to vote goes against the bible valuing input of women. That the church felt women should stay home rather than working is not biblical.

In regards to sex then 1 Cor 7:5 does not justify sex on demand. When read in context (not that we have the entire context) it is clear it is to be discussed. We see that in verse 6 where by mutual consent they can abstain for a time. If by mutual consent it therefore MUST be discussed. Lets assume your view is correct for a moment. Then according to that passage we should be constantly having sex 24 hours a day. After all we are only to stop by mutual consent! Just doesn't make sense.
Your bringing up the topic that it is hard to decide if it was forced or not has no bearing on the discussion at all. That is often the same for rape outside of marriage. It can be hard to tell. So why bring it up? Same for other crimes. In organised crime it can be hard to prove anything against the person in charge does that mean it is silly to have laws against what they do? Of course not

The fact that scripture says to submit to one another is all the evidence I need.
To go back to the driving the van example lets pretend for a moment that the wife wanted to drive the van because she felt that was what God wanted while the husband would prefer she didn't. Well if the husband is acting correctly according to biblical instruction he would let her drive the van. See Jesus died on the cross even though he didn't want to. He did though because he wanted to do the Fathers will. In any case we always have a choice with God as to if we obey or not. So if it is to be just like that then husbands must give their wives choice.

When you claim you have been studying it all your christian walk. Well I can point to plenty who did that and still lack understanding. You have the attitude that you are always right about what the bible says and means and anyone who disagrees is wrong. You always claim to be perfect when it comes to understanding the bible. You have never once that I've seen ever allowed the possibility that you might be wrong. I know people who disagree with you on this matter and they have read the bible far more times than you. Just because you read something heaps of times does not mean you understand. In fact it is not uncommon for people to think I am familiar with this and not really take in the information.

 

What is even more funny is that in one post you claim to not be aware of one good thing feminism has done. Yet you mention things like equal pay and the right to vote. These were done by the feminist movement. The feminist movement that started by the christian church. As I said before, and you made no response to, not all groups within feminist movement are good just like not all people in churches are good.
Why do you constantly resort to name calling when people disagree with you?

[Openly Curious]

Shalom shalom. in Yeshua. You're welcome. The 'round-about' way was not without reason - it was the way Yahweh directed me. The Jews, (and Yahweh?) , see ((TRUE LIFE)) things in more of a big picture/ many , perspectives or angles/ all at once - how everything interacts with everything around it - including knowledge from Yahweh, wisdom in Yeshua, Light in believers....
a lot is lacking and missing and wrong in western ways of thought, and little if anything is right. it takes a long long time ((or immediately by grace in Yeshua)) and grace and revelation on purpose willingly from Yahweh ("granted from the Father in heaven")
and
whole 'new' ways of thinking about everything to "think God's Way" > ((especially everything is Yahweh's; nothing is ours, nothing! not even our hands or feet or minds or souls or spirits; when we are born in Him)).....

there is very great joy and peace and righteousness for everyone in Yeshua, today, every day,
and
lacking in most churches because most "pastors" don't know Him and don't abide in Him.((as evidenced by their utter disobedience in many things, and lack of looking out for the poor, and lack of peace and joy and righteousness --- all observable , Yahweh permitting, by insiders and by outsiders((and THEY SEE IT TOO!!)) ))
 

I do believe there are new testament pastors who have the call of God on their lives who are like young Timothy in whom Paul trained and taught him how to be a pastor and those instruction are in God's word today to guide the pastor in his work for God.  The problem is the office of pastor has been changed into something it was never intended to be and those in error are more than those that are righteous following the instructions in the bible to make full proof of their ministry.  I believe in the gifts and callings of God that he gave to the new testament church found in Ephesians 4 for the edifying of the body and that their are righteous pastors out there still today who follow the word but they are few in number.

[Openly Curious]

The `elephant` in the room, is the fact that on the property of the organisation, the person in charge (pastor, elder, bishop...) has the legal right to enforce certain things, under man`s laws. But regarding the flock, well that is as Paul said -

`we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children....& you know how we exhorted, & comforted, & charged everyone of you, as a father does his own children.` (1Thess. 1: 7 & 11)

When a spiritual leader knows his actual disciples like that, then they will be listened to - personal, one to one. Today we just have CEO`s of organisations.

Marilyn.

I would have to say for the most part sadly you are correct.  That is why I think it is important to know the difference and who are your real spiritual leaders from those who are not so you want be deceived and will not follow those whom are false.

[Openly Curious]

"CEO's of organizations " is what everyone's been taught, trained, encouraged, and educated to accept or seek in the system. By counterfeiting the Truth, it "LOOKS GOOD", but is diabolical and insidious because there's no power for good, no life, no real repentance nor salvation offered nor possible "BY THE SYSTEM"...

and that's exactly how the world ((90% around us +/- 10% perhaps)) we grew up in likes is, prefers it, and will do all in its power to keep it that way.....

and such a system CANNOT HELP FAMILIES/ HUSBANDS/ WIVES nor children.

((notice how everyone seems to 'expect' the system ((government agencies/law))
to do what GOD SAYS IT CANNOT DO, and God says His people sin when they expect it to, or trust it.

Therefore, as we all have seen, regardless of if we grasp it or comprehend what we are seeing,
the SYSTEM has continually been breaking up families, destroying peoples faith,
substituting
a false sense of security or hope in EVERYONE, except the few, the remnant ....

So, it's not husbands vs pastors , no.
It's LIFE AND DEATH ----- TRUTH vs the LIE.

You mistake my meaning behind husband vs pastors.  There are so many that are being lead astray and pulled into by what the pastors are expecting of them  So much to the point that it comes in between marriages.  There is a minister that I personally deal with in my life that is trying his level headed best to get me to sign up to go to his school and on two occasions he has tried to do it deceitfully.  Once he did it in a message where he preached "Pursue" like it was suppose to be God speaking to me to pursue his school.  I felt not such calling nor interest in his school plus his school isn't even accredited.  Second time he tried to use his wife to lure me into going to his school which was so obvious it was ridiculous.  This minister has turned his ministry under a non-profit organization to nothing more than a business and is preying on the Christian people in the churches to make a profit using his school to lure them and take there money and making them think they are getting something they really are not getting.   It is these type things that I want to open up so that others will not be lead astray through the pastors of the land today.  So there will be no wedges being wedged in married couples lives as the devil is crafty and clever.  What I want for others is to know the difference and have discernment so that you can live in peace and live snug as a bug in the safety of a godly marriage allowing the devil no place.

I do agree with you about the system we have today and I see it all to well.

[another_poster]

Shalom shalom. in Yeshua. You're welcome. The 'round-about' way was not without reason - it was the way Yahweh directed me. The Jews, (and Yahweh?) , see ((TRUE LIFE)) things in more of a big picture/ many , perspectives or angles/ all at once - how everything interacts with everything around it - including knowledge from Yahweh, wisdom in Yeshua, Light in believers....
a lot is lacking and missing and wrong in western ways of thought, and little if anything is right. it takes a long long time ((or immediately by grace in Yeshua)) and grace and revelation on purpose willingly from Yahweh ("granted from the Father in heaven")
and
whole 'new' ways of thinking about everything to "think God's Way" > ((especially everything is Yahweh's; nothing is ours, nothing! not even our hands or feet or minds or souls or spirits; when we are born in Him)).....

there is very great joy and peace and righteousness for everyone in Yeshua, today, every day,
and
lacking in most churches because most "pastors" don't know Him and don't abide in Him.((as evidenced by their utter disobedience in many things, and lack of looking out for the poor, and lack of peace and joy and righteousness --- all observable , Yahweh permitting, by insiders and by outsiders((and THEY SEE IT TOO!!)) ))
 

I do believe there are new testament pastors who have the call of God on their lives who are like young Timothy in whom Paul trained and taught him how to be a pastor and those instruction are in God's word today to guide the pastor in his work for God.  The problem is the office of pastor has been changed into something it was never intended to be and those in error are more than those that are righteous following the instructions in the bible to make full proof of their ministry.  I believe in the gifts and callings of God that he gave to the new testament church found in Ephesians 4 for the edifying of the body and that their are righteous pastors out there still today who follow the word but they are few in number.

This really isn't an issue in my opinion. Essentially it is just a title. All of what is described in the bible as the role of a pastor is done in most churches. It may not be the pastor who does it but it is still done. If it wasn't being done then that would be a concern.
Personally I find the the fault really is with people in congregations as they have for the most part wanted to leave everything up to the pastor.

 

[gdemoss]

A pastor is a shepherd.  The word for pastor is translated shepherd everywhere but one.  And husband is a term that comes from house + band.  The two really are synonymous in nature.  The role of a pastor is to lead the flock he has been given just as the role of husband is to lead his house.

What we are talking about here is simply sinful men who mislead a church by both word and deed.  The question becomes why stay under such poor leadership?

[another_poster]

 

I don't need to back up where the Bible says women should be allowed to be beaten senseless by their husbands since I never said they should be allowed to be beaten senseless by their husbands.  How about you backing up where I ever said that.  It certainly isn't in the post you are responding to.

It is obvious that you did. That is exactly what was happening. It then changed. Why? Because women got organised and started campaigning for laws to be enforced. You said it was a bad thing. Therefore you support the way things were before that changed. That means you support women getting beaten senseless by their partners. So no you didn't actually say that is what you support but it is the actions that your words support.

 

Did you really think I would allow you to get away with that false accusation about something I never said?  How about backing up where feminism was responsible for laws suddenly being enforced against men who beat up their wives?  I haven't seen anything to back that up by you or anyone else.  You say that the church feeling like women should stay home rather than working is not Biblical.  How about backing that up?  First show where the church took that position, and then show how that is not Biblical.  I would say feminism teaches women should not stay home but should work and that is not Biblical. 

So how does a woman become a successful business woman such as the examples we see in the bible of women who are described as Godly if they are to stay at home? 

 

Who in the world is having sex 24 hours a day?  Seriously!  Who in their right mind would be able to demand sex 24 hours a day?  The passage states that neither the man nor the woman have control over their own body when it comes to sex in marriage, therefore common sense dictates that if they both follow this, there can be no rape in marriage.  You can go over to Wikepedia and do some research on the marriage exception and see it existed in all 50 states until the 1970s, because this exception was included in the law specifically because of the passage in 1 Corinthians.  You can further see that the changes in the laws had nothing to do with sudden revelations anyone was wrong, but to appease radical feminists.  You have no clue what you are talking about. 

Once again you do not read properly before responding. I never said anyone was having sex 24 hours a day. I simply said by your description of what the verse means that must be the case. You have also completely ignored a point I made. You decided not to address it at all. I am not surprised but still not used to it.

 

Yes, scripture says to submit to one another, but not once does it say husbands are to submit to their wives.  The context is not the same.  If it meant the same thing, then everyone literally has to obey everyone else.  I could tell you right now, as I am going to, "Another Poster," you don't have a clue what the heck you are talking about.  You need to stop posting at Worthy Boards forever.  I just told you that, so that means you must submit to me and do it, if your interpretation of mutual submission is correct, but the fact of the matter is, you are not correct.  This simply is meaning that we are fellow laborers for Christ, and we have to work together, so if my brother or sister needs help and asks for it, I am to help them.  Submission in marriage is completely different, in that the Bible says the husband will rule over his wife. 

Your example would only work if you ignore context of the passage. You are taking one verse and reading it all by itself which is not how the bible is meant to be read.

 

I have allowed the possibility I could be wrong on a host of issues over the years.  I will give you an example right now, and it is easily documented.  With regard to the Sabbath day, I have stated that I believe the Bible is saying that for the Christian, we are in the Sabbath rest when we lay down our burdens of sin by turning them over to Christ.  At the same time, I have also stated that it is possible we may still need to physically rest on Saturday.  I have admitted this is not clear enough to be sure, so I won't say conclusively.  I have made it clear I am no expert on Bible prophecy, so I am open to various interpretations on the subject.  I had a debate with a feminist on here several years back, and had to alter my view on women pastors.  As a result of something Ayin Jade said to me on Bible translations, I have softened my objections to the NKJV.  You don't know what you are talking about there either.

Yet you always declare that your interpretation of the bible is correct and I have never once seen you allow for the possibility you may be wrong. What you described above re the sabbath is not allowing the possibility that you are wrong. It is just that you have not decided. When allowing for being wrong it is on something you have decided upon and allowing the possibility that you decided incorrectly.

 

I don't support equal pay for equal work laws, and I don't have an opinion one way or the other of women getting the right to vote.  I can see good and bad in that regard, so I continue to say I don't think anything good has come from feminism. On the contrary, everything I have seen is bad.

This is contradictory. You say there is good but then you say nothing good has come from it. If there is good then that is good. It isn't a scale system where you weigh the good against the bad.

 

 On the contrary, everything I have seen is bad.  As is the case with the posts by Esther, you haven't backed up anything you said with scripture or anything else.  You just make statements, many that I can prove to be false.  You claim I call names?  The only thing I can think of you may be referring to is an instance where someone accused me of taking ridiculous positions while claiming to speak for God, and I called that person a false teacher.  That person is a false teacher as they are saying things in opposition to the Bible.  That is a fact.  I posted numerous scriptures, and they didn't even attempt to debate the scriptures.  This person ignored them and then tried to site "historical facts" as the basis of what they said.  This person didn't even back up the historical facts as being true.  You said I always resort to name calling when people disagree.  That is a lie.  I can prove you are lying by simply going back to all the threads where someone disagreed with me and showing I never called them names. 

What is wrong with citing historical facts when what they are talking about is historical fact?

I will tell you the same thing Another Poster that I told Esther.  If you think you are so smart and I am wrong, I challenge you to debate this in the Soap Box.  I have the Bible on my side. 

What is your unhealthy obsession with soap box? You can answer questions here without a problem. When you consistently don't respond to various points made in posts then why would it be any different in the soap box.

ADDITIONAL COMMENT:  You said that I always call those that disagree with me names.  I just went back and re-read this post to you.  We clearly disagree.  Other than calling you by your username, what name did I call you?  I clearly disagreed with you in the strongest terms, but what name did I call you?  Since I always call people that disagree with me names, that should be easy to answer. 

In every thread I have participated in that you have been in and disagreed with someone you resort to name calling. 
Can you provide evidence that you have followed biblical guidelines by calling Esther a false teacher. For a start just because someone says something that is incorrect does not make them a false teacher.
 

[another_poster]

Butero for one you have not provided evidence that you have followed biblical guidelines in calling Esther a false teacher.

Yes you provided scripture but you have not provided evidence that your interpretation is correct. Rather you assume you are correct and everyone else is wrong. This has been mentioned.

You also did not answer how the bible could describe a woman as a successful business woman and Godly if as you say according to the bible they should stay at home.

I am sure you are happy for govt not to be involved in having a say in what people get paid. I'm sure you have been treated well. I wonder how different it would be if you had actually been you. If you had received say $5 an hour while someone else doing identical work was getting $20. This is the kind of interfering they do. If we could trust companies to do the right thing there would be no need for govt to get involved. That is exactly why they are involved. Perhaps study history and see what happens when we let companies make the rules. We can see how companies break the rules these days. But yeah I'm sure your right that companies are totally trustworthy!

[another_poster]

You have yet to show where I have called everyone I disagreed with names.   I can go to numerous threads right now and prove that is false, so you are really in no position to lecture me about what I said about Esther.  You are a false witness, and I can absolutely prove that.  I can go to one thread where someone disagreed with me and I didn't call them names and prove that. 

The woman you are describing in Proverbs 31 was not a business woman in the way people look at business women today.  That is propaganda.  She obviously did her work at home.  She sewed in her spare time and planted a vineyard.  It is not like she owned a general store.  It is like women today who make blankets in their spare time and sell them to others to help out.  The idea this woman was going to work each day in town running a business is ludicrous. 

I have worked for very low wages, and suffered discrimination because of government interference through affirmative action.  I am utterly opposed to the government telling anyone what they must pay their employees, including equal pay for equal work, which by the way is not Biblical.  I am sure you are familiar with the parable Jesus gave about men standing around waiting for someone to hire them, and this fellow hires them at different times of the day for a penny.  Some were hired at the last hour, and all were given a penny.  When those who worked all day complained, he asked whether or not it was lawful for him to do with his money as he wished, and told them he had done them no wrong in giving them what they agreed upon.  You should be able to hire anyone for any amount they are willing to work for. 

and now we see the familiar tactic of you just endlessly repeating previous posts instead of answering.
For a start you called Esther a false teacher yet have not provided any such evidence. Esther is just a person on a forum giving their view.
I never once mentioned the Proverbs 31 woman. Since you claimed to be such an expert on the bible and having read it thoroughly and claiming to therefore know what it says I figured you would know that. Guess you don't know your bible as well as you think. Like I said before just reading it does not mean you understand. I was thinking about examples from the NT. Certainly not a woman sitting at home making a few blankets in her spare time.

 

What a joke using that parable as evidence that equal pay is unbiblical. That completely misses the point as to what a parable is about. The parable is talking about the kingdom of heaven and is teaching that it does not matter when one person gets saved they still get to heaven. It doesn't matter if earlier in life or on their deathbed. It never was intended to apply to anything else. Verse 1 makes that very clear.

 

I am sorry that you have suffered as a result of a government policy. That however does not mean it is wrong to do something about it. Just that the approach taken was not the best approach. I've suffered from being a christian. Does that make being a christian wrong? Of course not. likewise that does not make government legislated equal pay automatically wrong. In the example I gave you responded with having worked for low wages. However that did not address the question I asked.

[Guest Butero]

First of all, I am not a mind reader.  There is a lot in the Bible, and the first thing that came to my mind was Proverbs 31.  I have been in other threads and it already came up.  If you have specific examples in your mind of business women in scripture, tell me what they are.  I am not going to call Psychic Friends to ask them.  I do know the Bible very well.  Any time I need a quick refresher, I am able to listen to the entire New Testament straight through in a couple of days while driving down the road, and I have done that at times, but that still doesn't mean I can read your mind concerning what you were referring to. 

I know what the parable was about, but in the parable, Jesus specifically made the point that it was presumed that a man could do what he wished with his own money.  It was just something everyone should have understood, and in a sane society, that would be the case.  Anyway, we have completely hijacked this thread, so how about this.  You said you have examples of business women in the New Testament.  Why don't you start a new thread on that in general discussion, and we can discuss it there.  Post the passages and how you think that relates to the need for the feminist movement and I will be glad to discuss it with you.  Just let me know you did it. 

Your comment to me was that I always call people names when I disagree with them.  You didn't say I had done it one time in this thread towards Esther, and you were somehow defending her honor.  In addition to that, what are "Biblical guidelines" for calling someone a false teacher, other than them teaching something false?  I know the test of a false prophet.  If they say something will come to pass, and it doesn't, they are false, but what are these Biblical guidelines you speak of?  Maybe you can teach me something after all?  Just post the passage of scripture that gives it, and if I am satisfied I failed to meet the guidelines, I will admit it and even issue an apology for calling her a false teacher in this thread, at least until I follow the procedure.