When is Satan/Dragon/Devil thrown out of Heaven

[Reinitin]

18 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Reinitin

Hold your horse lady.

Rev 12:10 - For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

He is filled with fury, because he knows his time is short. 

Rev was written about 95 AD.  Who are Johns brothers (those in Christ like himself)  If Satan was removed after Christs ministry.  John had no brothers in Christ to be accused.  For the Church did not begin until Pentecost, after Christs ministry.

In Christ

Montana Marv

oh no sir. 95 is the late date John would of been 90.The only evidence to the 95 date is statement by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign."

The scriptures give us better time verifications. John wrote Revelation to a specific group of churches in Asia (Revelation 1:4). The importance of this statement cannot be overlooked. There is only one small window of time in which there were only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.

 The message to the church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). In verse's 10 and 11, Christ told John to inform them that an "hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all the world," i.e., the Roman Empire. Christ then told them that He was coming quickly and that they should hold fast. The reason this is important (besides the fact that this was directed to an actual church in the first century) is that the first persecution of Christians took place under Nero Caesar in AD 64. Therefore, Revelation must have been written before that time.

One of the most compelling proofs that Revelation was written before Jerusalem was destroyed is the fact that the Jewish temple was still standing!

Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."This passage is very similar to Luke 21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that they would see this event. They had asked Him about their temple (verse 5), and Jesus told them it would be destroyed before their generation passed away (verse 32). Notice again what Jesus said in verse 24, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles." This is the same thing Christ told John in Revelation 11:2. Therefore, since the disciples' generation has long since passed away, Revelation must have been written before the nations trampled Jerusalem under foot in AD 70.

Satan was cast down to the earth sir he has been wreaking havoc here and persecuting Israel every since. But, He is not accusing us before God. He does know his time is short. He was an eternal being now he knows he has an expiration date. He knows there is a big old angel with a chain too:)

[BlindSeeker]

6 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

oh no sir. 95 is the late date John would of been 90.The only evidence to the 95 date is statement by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign."

The scriptures give us better time verifications. John wrote Revelation to a specific group of churches in Asia (Revelation 1:4). The importance of this statement cannot be overlooked. There is only one small window of time in which there were only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.

 The message to the church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). In verse's 10 and 11, Christ told John to inform them that an "hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all the world," i.e., the Roman Empire. Christ then told them that He was coming quickly and that they should hold fast. The reason this is important (besides the fact that this was directed to an actual church in the first century) is that the first persecution of Christians took place under Nero Caesar in AD 64. Therefore, Revelation must have been written before that time.

One of the most compelling proofs that Revelation was written before Jerusalem was destroyed is the fact that the Jewish temple was still standing!

Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."This passage is very similar to Luke 21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that they would see this event. They had asked Him about their temple (verse 5), and Jesus told them it would be destroyed before their generation passed away (verse 32). Notice again what Jesus said in verse 24, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles." This is the same thing Christ told John in Revelation 11:2. Therefore, since the disciples' generation has long since passed away, Revelation must have been written before the nations trampled Jerusalem under foot in AD 70.

Satan was cast down to the earth sir he has been wreaking havoc here and persecuting Israel every since. But, He is not accusing us before God. He does know his time is short. He was an eternal being now he knows he has an expiration date. He knows there is a big old angel with a chain too:)

Excellent, and I whole heartily agree. For I have examine this myself and concluded the much of the same, though I felt it may have been as late as 68. However, you've given me good cause to re-examine my conclusions. Again, nicely presented.

 

[thereselittleflower]

32 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

oh no sir. 95 is the late date John would of been 90.The only evidence to the 95 date is statement by Irenaeus (AD 130 to AD 202), as quoted by Eusebius, the church historian, in AD 325: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign."

The scriptures give us better time verifications. John wrote Revelation to a specific group of churches in Asia (Revelation 1:4). The importance of this statement cannot be overlooked. There is only one small window of time in which there were only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.

 The message to the church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13). In verse's 10 and 11, Christ told John to inform them that an "hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all the world," i.e., the Roman Empire. Christ then told them that He was coming quickly and that they should hold fast. The reason this is important (besides the fact that this was directed to an actual church in the first century) is that the first persecution of Christians took place under Nero Caesar in AD 64. Therefore, Revelation must have been written before that time.

One of the most compelling proofs that Revelation was written before Jerusalem was destroyed is the fact that the Jewish temple was still standing!

Revelation 11:1-2, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."This passage is very similar to Luke 21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that they would see this event. They had asked Him about their temple (verse 5), and Jesus told them it would be destroyed before their generation passed away (verse 32). Notice again what Jesus said in verse 24, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles." This is the same thing Christ told John in Revelation 11:2. Therefore, since the disciples' generation has long since passed away, Revelation must have been written before the nations trampled Jerusalem under foot in AD 70.

Satan was cast down to the earth sir he has been wreaking havoc here and persecuting Israel every since. But, He is not accusing us before God. He does know his time is short. He was an eternal being now he knows he has an expiration date. He knows there is a big old angel with a chain too:)

I would think Irenaeus would know when John was imprisoned on Patmos and wrote the Apocalypse of John better than you.

The view that The Apocalypse of John was written early is a Preterist view.

So, far from Irenaeus' testimony only coming to us from Eusebius, we see his testimony from his own pen, as well as others:

• External Evidence

  The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

  Irenaeus

  Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

  Clement of Alexandria

  Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

  Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

  Victorinus

  Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

  When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

  Jerome

  Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

  In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

  To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

• https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

All of the early testimony is consistent with putting the time John wrote The Apocalypse at the end of the 1st century.

 

[Reinitin]

12 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said:

Excellent, and I whole heartily agree. For I have examine this myself and concluded the much of the same, though I felt it may have been as late as 68. However, you've given me good cause to re-examine my conclusions. Again, nicely presented.

 

I got stuck on 68 because of the inscription. "The Revelation which God made to John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero Caesar." that makes you think it has to be after 68 and can get you confused. till you find that the inscription wasn't added till 1627 to a syrian version published by Deuteronomy Dieu. 

 

[thereselittleflower]

2 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

I got stuck on 68 because of the inscription. "The Revelation which God made to John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero Caesar." that makes you think it has to be after 68 and can get you confused. till you find that the inscription wasn't added till 1627 to a syrian version published by Deuteronomy Dieu. 

 

• Internal Evidence

  The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

  The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

  The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

  Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

  Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

  Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

  The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

  Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).

  https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

7 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

I got stuck on 68 because of the inscription. "The Revelation which God made to John the evangelist, in the Island of Patmos, to which he was banished by Nero Caesar." that makes you think it has to be after 68 and can get you confused. till you find that the inscription wasn't added till 1627 to a syrian version published by Deuteronomy Dieu. 

 

The scriptures say that one's argument sounds good until it is answered

• Proverbs 18:17

  King James Bible
  He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.

So along comes others to answer:

• Arguments for the Early Date Answered

  In the absence of external evidence in support of an early date for Revelation, preterists generally rely on what they perceive as internal support for their view.

  Writing Style Differences

  It is contended that the Gospel of John has a much smoother style of Greek than does the Apocalypse. Thus, the latter must have been written many years prior to the fourth Gospel—when the apostle was not so experienced in the literary employment of Greek.

  In answer to this argument, we cite R. H. Gundry:

  Archaeological discoveries and literary studies have recently demonstrated that along with Aramaic and Hebrew, Greek was commonly spoken among first century Palestinians. Thus John must have known and used Greek since his youth (1970, 365).

  B. B. Warfield contends that:

  the Apocalypse betrays no lack of knowledge of, or command over, Greek syntax or vocabulary; the difference lies, rather, in the manner in which a language well in hand is used, in style, properly so called; and the solution of it must turn on psychological, not chronological, considerations (Schaff and Herzog 1891, 2036).

  R. H. Charles, author of the commentary on Revelation in the International Critical Commentary series, and perhaps the greatest expert on apocalyptic literature, regarded the so-called bad grammar as deliberate, for purposes of emphasis, and consistent with the citation of numerous Old Testament passages (Gundry, 365). It might be noted that in the 404 verses of Revelation, Westcott and Hort’s Greek New Testament gives over five hundred references and allusions to the Old Testament.

  Finally, as McClintock and Strong point out:

  It may be admitted that the Revelation has many surprising grammatical peculiarities. But much of this is accounted for by the fact that it was probably written down, as it was seen, “in the Spirit,” while the ideas, in all their novelty and vastness, filled the apostle’s mind, and rendered him less capable of attending to forms of speech. His Gospel and Epistles, on the other hand, were composed equally under divine influence, but an influence of a gentler, more ordinary kind, with much care, after long deliberation, after frequent recollection and recital of the facts, and deep pondering of the doctrinal truths which they involve (1064).

  No Mention of Jerusalem’s Destruction

  It is claimed that Revelation must have been penned before A.D. 70 since it has no allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem; rather, it is alleged, it represents both the city and the temple as still standing.

  In response we note the following points.

  First, if John wrote this work near A.D. 96, there would be little need to focus upon the destruction of Jerusalem since the lessons of that catastrophe would have been well learned in the preceding quarter of a century.

  However, it must be noted that some scholars see a veiled reference to Jerusalem’s destruction in 11:8, where “the great city,” in which the Savior was crucified (Jerusalem), is called Sodom—not merely because of wickedness, but due to the fact that it was a destroyed city of evil (Zahn 1973, 306).

  Second, the contention that the literal city and temple were still standing, based upon chapter eleven, ignores the express symbolic nature of the narrative. Salmon says that it is:

  difficult to understand how anyone could have imagined that the vision represents the temple as still standing. For the whole scene is laid in heaven, and the temple that is measured is the heavenly temple (11:19; 15:5). We have only to compare this vision with the parallel vision of a measuring-reed seen by Ezekiel (ch. 40), in which the prophet is commanded to measure—surely not the city which it is stated had been demolished fourteen years previously, but the city of the future seen by the prophet in vision (1904, 238).

  Nero Associated with 666

  Some argue for an early date of the Apocalypse by asserting that the enigmatic 666 (13:18) is a reference to Nero. This is possible only by pursuing the most irresponsible form of exegesis.

  To come up with such an interpretation one must:

• add the title “Caesar” to Nero’s name;
• compute the letter-number arrangement on the basis of Hebrew, whereas the book was written in Greek; and
• alter the spelling of “Caesar” by dropping the yodh in the Hebrew.

• All of this reveals a truly desperate attempt to find a reference to Nero in the text.

  Additionally, Leon Morris has pointed out that Irenaeus discussed a number of possibilities for deciphering the 666, but he did not even include Nero in his list, let alone regard this as a likely conjecture (1980, 38). Noted critic Theodor Zahn observed that Nero was not even suggested as a possibility until the year 1831 (447).

  In view of the foregoing evidence, a very strong case can be made for dating Revelation at about A.D. 96. Accordingly, the theory of realized eschatology, which is grounded upon the necessity of the Apocalypse having been written prior to A.D. 70, is shown to be without the necessary foundation for its successful defense, to say nothing of the scores of other scriptural difficulties that plague it.

• https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

 

[Reinitin]

17 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

I would think Irenaeus would know when John was imprisoned on Patmos and wrote the Apocalypse of John better than you.

The view that The Apocalypse of John was written early is a Preterist view.

So, far from Irenaeus' testimony only coming to us from Eusebius, we see his testimony from his own pen, as well as others:

• External Evidence

  The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

  Irenaeus

  Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

  Clement of Alexandria

  Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

  Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

  Victorinus

  Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

  When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

  Jerome

  Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

  In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

  To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

• https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

All of the early testimony is consistent with putting the time John wrote The Apocalypse at the end of the 1st century.

 

Sister, A problem I have giving their testimony credence is that the book of Revelation is given to us from the Lord through John. No where in that scripture is the destruction of Jerusalem spoken of as a past event. We know Jerusalem fell in 70 a d. You don't even want to get me started on all that:)

Edited February 17, 2016 by Reinitin

[thereselittleflower]

2 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

Sister, A problem I have giving their testimony credence is that the book of Revelation is given to us from the Lord through John. No where in that scripture is the destruction of Israel spoken of as a past event. We know Jerusalem fell in 70 a d. 

This has been answered.

To insist that the destruction of Jerusalem would need to have been explicitly spoken of in this particular book is a mere assumption without any true foundation, logical or otherwise.

[Reinitin]

10 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

• Internal Evidence

  The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

  The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

  The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

  Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

  Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

  Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

  The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

  Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).

  https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

 

 

sounds like a lot of speculation to me and inserts of Roman dogma. 

[thereselittleflower]

13 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

sounds like a lot of speculation to me and inserts of Roman dogma. 

Actually no - I would have to say the speculation belongs to those who disregard the earliest testimony of those who would know when it was written from those who knew John personally for speculative conjectures for an early dating.

These are hardly arguments of speculation.  They are founded on logical comparisons and deduction.

It does not make any sense, for instance, to say the Church of Laodicea is rich, wealthy at a time they had just suffered through a great deal of destruction from an earthquake.  But 30 years or so later, when the city has been rebuilt and economically thriving, it makes perfect sense.

That is hardly a matter of mere speculation.  That is deductive reasoning.