Creation and an Old Earth - One Possibility

[n2thelight]

On Thursday, November 05, 2015 3:10:10, HAZARD said:

Thank you Kan. That's the way to learn anything. Its harder to get rid of old teaching than absorb new.

There were two great folds recorded in Scripture, Lucifers flood, and Noahs flood and there is a great difference between them. I have compiled Scriptures which describe each one andanyone can see the great difference between them. I will for you post these again. You read them and make up your own mind and forget others who boldly call God a lier and say these scriptures do not exist or mean what they say. Take your time and absorb them, you will see it.

 

Here’s the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. I will head the Scriptures L.F for Lucifers Flood, and N.F. for Noahs Flood.

 

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over.

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

 

This proves the Earth was PLENISHED" before because God told Noah to go and RE-PLENISH the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and REPLENISH the earth.”

 

Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

 

All I can say is........Beautiful....

All I would add is that God did'nt tell Adam and Eve to replenish the earth,Adam had yet to be formed......This was told to the males and females

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them."Notice He created both at the same time...Adam nor Eve are on the scene....

Again you explained the two different floods beautifully Ive tried but most just don't get it.......May have to borrow it for another forum that Im on,wouldnt mind would you?

Edited December 8, 2015 by n2thelight

[JohnD]

On 12/7/2015, 9:51:26, siegi91 said:

Is that directed to me?

If yes, then... yes, my "facts" assume that there is no intelligent Almighty individual driving all these things.

And it could not be otherwise. Science assumes naturalism as true in its methodology. No matter whether you are a believer or not, as a scientist you are not allowed to invoke the supernatural.

This is the rule. Whether that rule allows to find all that is knowable. is debatable.

From my vantage point, that rule seems to work, though. If it did not, I would probably be unable to use a computer (semiconductors, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics) to communicate with you (optics, information theory, etc.).

Fine.

Then since the LAWS of thermodynamics militate against an eternal universe and that nothing can come into existence on its own, how does your interpretation of the facts explain the existence of the universe in the first place?

1st Law of Thermodynamics (law of conservation) from nothing nothing comes

2nd Law of Thermodynamics (entropy) order decays to disorder and chaos

 

[siegi91]

14 hours ago, JohnD said:

Fine.

Then since the LAWS of thermodynamics militate against an eternal universe and that nothing can come into existence on its own, how does your interpretation of the facts explain the existence of the universe in the first place?

1st Law of Thermodynamics (law of conservation) from nothing nothing comes

2nd Law of Thermodynamics (entropy) order decays to disorder and chaos

 

 

Interestng questions. You seem to interested in physics, which is a good thing, I believe.

the first law of thermodynamics says that energy is conserved. No new energy can come from nothing or disappear into nothing.

There are two ways to justify that.

1) we know today that energy can be borrowed from empty space, as long as the debt is paid within a time inversely proportional to the borrowed energy. This has been validated experimentally (see Casimir effect). Particles pop in and out from existence all the time, withut a source of energy that allows them to do that. The physical explanation is a bit conter-intuitive, but it forms the basis of quantum mechanics. It is, basically, the principle of indetermination estabilished by my countryman Dr. Heisenberg.

2) classically, the total energy of the Universe seems to compute to exactly zero. This is actually expressed in  the equation on my avatar. In other words, there is no net energy coming from anywhere that violates the principle. From an energetic point of view, our Universe is still nothing.

Your second question is, honestly, far more difficult. There is, at the time of this post, no established theory that explains how our Universe has such a low entropy at the spacetime location that we (with abuse of language) identify as its beginning. In other words: we do not have a clue.

This is good and bad news. It is bad news because we would like to know everything about nature and we do not, yet. It is good news because becoming a physicist can still get me a job.

Nevertheless, we physicists can still make a case for an eternal and immutable Universe which is still compatible with what we observe. Prima facie, it seems absurd to postulate an immutable and eternal Universe, when we are surrounded by changes all the time., including its apparent birth. How can the Universe be immutable if I am changing it by writing this very post? However, this is possible if we assume a different, and probably more correct , theory of time. But in order to that, I need to resort to the theory of relativity, which is my main field of post graduate research.

Are you ready for that? It is going to be a bit of a rough ride.

 siegi

 

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by siegi91

[ezekiel]

2 hours ago, siegi91 said:

Casimir effect

siegi91

 I am interested in this in the Physical world so to say. One reason I think light speed are slow in regards to it. That being said as our solar system enters the plain and these forces are open. Let me explain a ship or rather particles will move thru these portals to our solar system. I think some being's ok some bad. Gods forces will fight the bad one's and will win. God will bring them here to sum up the matter. They will say they came here because some know not the Lord that  He put a hook in them and pulled them here. They are here now and I see it in the spirit of things. A war in Heaven and satan will be cast down.

 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

[HAZARD]

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2015‎ ‎7‎:‎30‎:‎13‎, shiloh357 said:

 

No, I am the one calling out false teachers for what they are.  Dake was full of false teaching.   My mind is fixed on the truth of Scripture.  I know and read Hebrew and I know that Dake and all other gap theorists don't know Hebrew.  Those who do know why the gap theory is wrong.

The gap theory as put forth by Dake denies the redemptive nature of God.  That's why its a heresy.

 

Ok, forget the gap. Lucifer was a fallen creature when he entered the garden to tempt Adam and Eve. He never began with Adam, he chose the weaker vessel who not only fell for his lies, but she told the first lie as well. She said God said we shall not eat of the fruit, but we must not touch it, which is not what God said.

Genesis 3:2-3,    2, And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3, But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

God actually said;

Genesis 2:16, And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
   

V. 17, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God does not create evil, bad things, sinning angels, He never created demons or any other kind of rebel being be they spirit or mortal. So, when Lucifer sinned he drew one third of God's innumerable angels with him. How many were involved, it is not mentioned in Scripture, but we can ask, where did these 200,000,000 demons' released during the tribulation come from?

Revelation 9: 16-17,  And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

V. 17, And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

God never once mentions creating demons, demon horsemen having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone to torment mankind in the future if mankind rebels?

We can, I will conclude they were not created during the six days of the restoration of the Earth to a habitable state for mankind, and before Lucifer, already a fallen creature, entered the garden of Eden, to tempt man, simply because they are not mentioned. They are rebels who rebelled with Lucifer during the Pre-Adamite world. God did not, never did, never will create rebel angels, Satan, who was a perfect creation, until iniquity was found in him, rebels of any kind, let alone demon rebels.

So where do you think these demons of Revelation 9:16-17 came from ??????? 

 

[JohnD]

On 12/9/2015, 11:26:55, siegi91 said:

 

Interestng questions. You seem to interested in physics, which is a good thing, I believe.

the first law of thermodynamics says that energy is conserved. No new energy can come from nothing or disappear into nothing.

There are two ways to justify that.

1) we know today that energy can be borrowed from empty space, as long as the debt is paid within a time inversely proportional to the borrowed energy. This has been validated experimentally (see Casimir effect). Particles pop in and out from existence all the time, withut a source of energy that allows them to do that. The physical explanation is a bit conter-intuitive, but it forms the basis of quantum mechanics. It is, basically, the principle of indetermination estabilished by my countryman Dr. Heisenberg.

2) classically, the total energy of the Universe seems to compute to exactly zero. This is actually expressed in  the equation on my avatar. In other words, there is no net energy coming from anywhere that violates the principle. From an energetic point of view, our Universe is still nothing.

Your second question is, honestly, far more difficult. There is, at the time of this post, no established theory that explains how our Universe has such a low entropy at the spacetime location that we (with abuse of language) identify as its beginning. In other words: we do not have a clue.

This is good and bad news. It is bad news because we would like to know everything about nature and we do not, yet. It is good news because becoming a physicist can still get me a job.

Nevertheless, we physicists can still make a case for an eternal and immutable Universe which is still compatible with what we observe. Prima facie, it seems absurd to postulate an immutable and eternal Universe, when we are surrounded by changes all the time., including its apparent birth. How can the Universe be immutable if I am changing it by writing this very post? However, this is possible if we assume a different, and probably more correct , theory of time. But in order to that, I need to resort to the theory of relativity, which is my main field of post graduate research.

Are you ready for that? It is going to be a bit of a rough ride.

 siegi

 

 

Okay.

How does any thing exist forever since physicists are so hell bent on no one existing forever?

You say you can make a case for an eternal immutable universe despite the evidence to the contrary.

Why not make the same case for God?

Suppose there really is one. Does his existence when mankind was in its infancy automatically discourage belief in him / his existence as archaic?

 

 

[JohnD]

And what would something physical eternal be made of?

The shifting sands of stardust?

Seems hardly likely.

 

 

[JohnD]

5 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

I can't tell.   Do you want to know, if possible, the answer , from Scripture... ? 

 

Sure.

[JohnD]

Okay.

You and I believe that (which is true) but not everyone in this conversation does believe this. 

My point to them is, how is it that something physical in their minds (i.e. the universe itself) can last on its own for all eternity from eternity past.

And even in your biblical example, you cannot discount what I am driving at (the necessary spiritual element). In the resurrected Christ the Spirit and the body (flesh and bone) are infused (as ours will be 1 John 3:2, 1 Corinthians 15:45b).

And according to the Bible the universe itself (and even the body of Jesus) are not from an eternal past. Jesus' Spirit is from eternity to eternity. But his body was created by the Father after the creation of the physical universe (John 1:14, Hebrews 10:5).

 

 

 

 

 

[HAZARD]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2015‎ ‎7‎:‎01‎:‎13‎, n2thelight said:

All I can say is........Beautiful....

All I would add is that God did'nt tell Adam and Eve to replenish the earth,Adam had yet to be formed......This was told to the males and females

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them."Notice He created both at the same time...Adam nor Eve are on the scene....

Again you explained the two different floods beautifully Ive tried but most just don't get it.......May have to borrow it for another forum that Im on,wouldnt mind would you?

Please forgive me my internet provider is having hick-ups and I am some times not able to log on and then if so only for a short time.

Please use this anytime anywhere, and add this if you like;

 

God In His Anger Made The Earth 'Without Form And Void'

 

I don't like the term 'Gap Theory' because it's not a theory. It's best to call it the 'Gap Principle.'

 

Ezekiel 28:13-19 teaches that Lucifer was stripped of his heavenly position, authority and glory when he rebelled against God in seeking equality. Earth became Satan's new home. It is commonly believed (and I disagree) that Satan in his anger and rage destroyed the earth. In fact (and you're about to be amazed), God destroyed the earth in His own anger. Yes, that's right, GOD DESTROYED THE EARTH IN GENESIS 1:1...

Jeremiah 4:23-28, “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.”

Could the Bible be any clearer that God in His anger made the earth without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep? The cities were inhabited by angels. Man had not been created yet. This is when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Argue as one may, these Scriptures plainly evidence why the earth was without form and void in Genesis 1:1. In fact, Jeremiah 4:23 even repeats the exact phrase word-for-word. These Scriptures cannot be ignored if one is to be an honest Bible student.

Carefully notice that Lucifer dwelt upon the earth prior to his rebellion. Isaiah 14:14, “I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” Lucifer's sin was wanting EQUALITY with God. This is the same sin of feminists today, who want to be EQUAL with male authority in marriage, home, church and society. God has ordained masculine authority in the humanity. Women are equal in worth, intelligence and importance to God; but the man is to lead, not the woman.

When Lucifer sinned, he wasn't punished by God. We know that Lucifer wasn't banned from Heaven because Satan appears before God in Job 1:6-7. Satan will be judged, convicted and punished at The Great White Throne Of Judgment with the rest of the wicked (Revelation 20:11-15). Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna - Hell) forever to burn and be tormented night and day without rest. 2nd Peter 2:4 also tells us that the angels bound in Hell are RESERVED unto judgment. So neither the Devil nor the demons have been punished yet for their wickedness.

Those who believe in a Young Earth vehemently reject the idea that there's a Gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2; but as you've just read, God destroyed the cities of the earth and made the land desolate. Light ceased to shine (the sun, moon and stars were blocked out by God). The mountains trembled and moved. The earth had been a fruitful wilderness where dinosaurs and prehistoric birds and mammals lived. But God became angry for some reason (which is not specified).

I believe the answer is clear in consideration of Isaiah 14:14. Lucifer rebelled against God, drawing one-third of the angels with him to rebel, and it angered the Lord greatly. “The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.”

 

Where the heavens black during Noah’s flood?

 

No they were not.  The only logical, reasonable Biblical answer is found in Genesis 1:1 where we are told that darkness was upon the face of the deep.

 

  Jeremiah 4:23, I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

    V 24, I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

    V 25, I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

    V 26, I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

   V  27, For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

    V 28, For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

 

The heavens above were never BLACK and had no light during Noah’s flood? During Noahs flood there was day and night throughout the entire time. Noah and His family were saved, so all mankind was not destroyed, birds were in the ark and Noah released one to find dry land, the mountains are never mentioned as trembling and the hills moving before or even during Noahs flood?

 

God in fact turned the mountains upside down during Lucifers flood hence the sea shells and other marine fossils like fish and other sea creatures found these day on the highest mountain peaks.

 

At the same time these days,  I have personally seen fossils of petrified tree's and leaves and shells hundreds of feet deep under hundreds of feet thick solid, I mean rock that was so hard we had to drill and blast it to uncover the coal rock in coal mines I have worked in! 

 

Young Earth advocates want you to disregard the Hebrew and other Scriptures that expose their philosophy. They surely do not want you to be aware of the marking in the Masoretic Text at the end of Genesis 1:1, indicating the proper translation of the disjunctive “BUT” instead of the conjunctive (or connecting) “AND.” In the manuscript the reading would be:

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. BUT (Hebrew “waw”) the earth was (became) without form, and void;”

“Was.” The Hebrew for “was” is “hayah.” It is important to distinguish whether the verb “was” is in the manuscript, or if it has been inserted by the translators. It is wonderful that the King James translators made this distinction. When “was” appears not italicized, that indicates it is in the Masoretic Text. When you see “was” italicized, it indicates it does not appear in the manuscripts, but is understood. This is very important to notice when reading your King James Translation which makes this distinction. In Genesis 1:2 where the verb “was” appears twice: first, as part of the Masoretic