DO YOU BELIEVE ITS OKAY TO EAT PORK, AS A BELIEVER IN GOD ?

[post]

4 hours ago, Shar said:

 Remember, when Jesus and the Apostles spoke of the scripture and referenced scripture, they were not speaking of the New Testament.   It did not exist.

why would you speak as though the new testament isn't scripture? 
trying to duck Mark 7:19? 

if you teach that we are under Moses' law with regard to dietary law (and why not every part of the law, not just the parts you may like?) then you're going to have to deal with that verse. 

 

[post]

21 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

Isaiah 66, is the best one I really hang my hat on,

the abomination at the end time, when God will come on that person, hiding behind the tree chewing on swines flesh, it doesn't get any better then that

If Isaiah 66 is where you want to 'hang your hat' then you're going to have to face a couple things: 

1. Isaiah 66:3 is part of that prophecy, and in it the Almighty calls their kosher sacrifices tantamount to swilling pigs blood. 
2. the thing that He holds against the people called His enemies isn't the mere fact that they ate bacon.
3. taken in context, specifically with verses 2-4, and consistent with the other prophecy given in Isaiah, and with the testimony of Christ against the pharisees, even those who never ate any unclean food at all, but who harbor wickedness in their hearts, are subject to the very same wrath in your favorite verse 17. 

so let scripture interpret scripture; don't set it against itself. 

 

[post]

life is more than food
(Luke 12:23) 

[Spock]

7 hours ago, other one said:

 

Other one,

i don't think I could defend the position any better. Your words gave the balance that I believe is necessary in a discussion like this.

if some people really believe God still demands that kind of behavior, let them believe. Now I don't believe that and am willing to face God at judgment day ready to defend my belief if necessary, But I like the balance that Romans 14 provides- don't do anything to cause a brother in the lord to stumble. 

I would apply Romans 14 even deeper than what I believe it says: if I went out to dinner at Chili's with a couple who I know don't believe god wants you to eat porky and probably feel I shouldn't eat it as well, chance are, I won't be ordering baby back ribs for my entre. Not that I believe me eating may make them violate their consciences and also eat porky, but merely because I don't want them to have hard feelings toward me and perhaps judge me harshly in their spirit  (which may be sin). 

Spock

[Spock]

If I may be so bold, for anyone who wants to go deeper in this subject, here is a link from a Messianic Jew, who does not believe Christians should be under the Torah Laws, in particular, the 613 mitzvahs. But read it for yourself if interested: 

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Redux/redux.html

sinnersaved, I would love to read your rebuttal to this article if you feel so led. I know it's rather long and I won't blame you if you don't feel like doing that. 

Cheers,

spock

[Shar]

10 hours ago, Ezra said:

As a matter of fact, Jesus (by the power of the Holy Spirit, giving the words to Paul) actually declared all meats as "clean" (1 Tim 4:1-6). He also told Noah the same thing. As long as the Old Covenant was in effect, the dietary restrictions were in effect.  I believe the vision shown to Peter in Acts 10:9-16, may have had a double meaning: (1) Gentiles are now clean and (b) all meats are now clean.  Please note carefully what the Holy Spirit says through Paul, particularly verse 4. So today the promotion of dietary restrictions is actually a doctrine of devils:

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

 

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.      

 

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

 

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

 

As already mentioned, those who wish to follow the Mosaic Law are free to do so, provided they do not judge those who freely eat all meats with thanksgiving.

 

 

 

 

Good morning.  Answer 1 timothy 4.  Remember, Paul is addressing Timothy for instructions to church leaders.  These latter days they abandon the Truth and follow the devil.  Remember, Satan is a counterfeit and against G-d's order.  They forbid the holy order of marriage.  Probably for living in sin instead.  They abstain from certain FOODS that G-d created and to be received with Thanksgiving.  This is not against G-d's dietary laws, but against what He says you can eat.  Paul's reference to everything good and to be received with thanksgiving is better understood as to what G-d defined as good food.

The real question is, "What does G-d define as food?"  That is very clear in the Leviticus and elsewhere.  For His people, called by His name, the list did not include unclean animals.  He specifically says Eat this and Don't Eat That.   In the beginning, all of mankind was vegetarian.  After the flood, we see a verse to everything that moves.  But these people already knew what clean and unclean animals were and they are coming out of a lifetime of being a vegan.  I don't think they immediately went hunting for wild boar.  From Noah to Moses, it is interesting that nowhere in the Bible do you ever see a reference to them serving up unclean meat to eat, but always specifically serving up clean meat.  Most times they ate meat on only special occasions. 

Now, there are references throughout that G-d permitted the giving of dead animals and unclean things that were not permitted to be eaten to the alien (the Goyim, the true Gentile that was not in the faith or family of G-d).  Most importantly, we must all remember that the kingdom of G-d is more than eat or drink.  Our priorities should always be on our heart (words, thoughts, actions, etc.).  Never let something as this discussion divide the Family of G-d.

[Shar]

40 minutes ago, Spock said:

If I may be so bold, for anyone who wants to go deeper in this subject, here is a link from a Messianic Jew, who does not believe Christians should be under the Torah Laws, in particular, the 613 mitzvahs. But read it for yourself if interested: 

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Redux/redux.html

sinnersaved, I would love to read your rebuttal to this article if you feel so led. I know it's rather long and I won't blame you if you don't feel like doing that. 

Cheers,

spock

Read the article  By the way, I love Hebrew4Christians.  He is referencing throughout, the question as to whether we should follow (quite erroneously) the Torah as defined by Rabbinical Judaism.  This is mostly the Oral Law with the added requirements by man.  This is what Yeshua was referencing and rebuking the Pharisees when they criticized His disciples.  He clearly asks in this article "are we to abandon the real Torah?"  The author's response is G-d forbid,  just as Paul said, "Are we to nullify the Law?  G-d forbid.

Just like Yeshua said, "Don't think I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets".  The true law of G-d throughout His Word has always been about grace, loving G-d and loving your neighbor.  G-d gave the 10 commandments which summarized his Law into categories that were to "Love your G-d with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself".  Temporary animals sacrifices were needed to cover sin and point to the True Lamb of G-d.  We are now made clean and righteous through His sacrifice, once for all.  The mystery of the Holy Spirit now lives in us.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Shar

[Shar]

13 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

Yet Paul does not rebuke Peter for living (including eating) as a Gentile - which it is clear Peter did, but for living as a Jew and because of his hypocritical behavior others following him in doing so.

 

The Council of Jerusalem did not lay the Mosaic dietary laws on the Gentiles either.

 

 

Peter was a Jew.  He could not, nor did he ever become a Gentile.  In this passage, Paul rebukes Peter for his hypocrisy when the men came from James.  He withdrew himself from association with the Gentiles.  Paul rebukes him for Peter lived and associated with the Gentiles, as other Gentiles did, and no longer as a Jew who would not associate or come near a Gentile.  Remember, in his vision, he clearly did not ever eat or get near that which was unclean and Gentiles were unclean.  G-d showed Peter that Gentiles are now welcomed into His family.  Henceforth, his visit to Cornelius and entering the house of a Gentile for the first time.

These men from James are referenced in Acts as they insisted that the Gentiles must be circumcised in order to be saved.  This was not the case.  Here in Galatians, Paul further rebukes this for these men that came from James were seen by Peter.  Peter became fearful and separated himself.  Paul further rebukes this circumcision mandate from these men by stating that no one can be justified or saved by observing the law, but only through faith in Messiah.  We died to these requirements of the Law in order to live by faith.  This rebuke is not an mandate that all of G-d's law (teachings, guidelines) are to be thrown out.  Paul still observed these, practiced them.  He took Nazarite vows and performed them.  The apostles and early believers kept the Sabbath, festivals and kept kosher.

[Spock]

46 minutes ago, Shar said:

Read the article  By the way, I love Hebrew4Christians.  He is referencing throughout, the question as to whether we should follow (quite erroneously) the Torah as defined by Rabbinical Judaism.  This is mostly the Oral Law with the added requirements by man.  This is what Yeshua was referencing and rebuking the Pharisees when they criticized His disciples.  He clearly asks in this article "are we to abandon the real Torah?"  The author's response is G-d forbid,  just as Paul said, "Are we to nullify the Law?  G-d forbid.

Just like Yeshua said, "Don't think I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets".  The true law of G-d throughout His Word has always been about grace, loving G-d and loving your neighbor.  G-d gave the 10 commandments which summarized his Law into categories that were to "Love your G-d with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself".  Temporary animals sacrifices were needed to cover sin and point to the True Lamb of G-d.  We are now made clean and righteous through His sacrifice, once for all.  The mystery of the Holy Spirit now lives in us.

I think I'm understanding you better here. You believe we should continue to follow and obey God's written word as prescribed in Torah (the 270 or so mitzvahs that are still applicable today)  not merely the interpretation provided by the rabbis  (rabbinical Judaism) as set forth in the Talmud.  Ok, let's go with that. Then I suppose you believe you should adhere to ALL of the applicable 270 mitzvahs and not just the dietary mitzvahs.  Ok, read on from Hebrew4Christians:

As you know, there are some people within the Messianic movement (as well as legalistic churches) who claim that followers of Jesus should become "Torah Observant." Since Jesus was a Torah-observant Jew, they argue, and we are called to be His followers, then we ourselves should become Torah observant, too.  As well-meaning as this sounds, however, this is specious reasoning, based on a variety of exegetical errors, not the least of which is the confusion between the idea of Torah and Covenant.  Nonetheless, I wonder if these legalists have ever taken the time to actually read the list of the Torah's demands -- all 613 of them? As a reminder, let me list a few of the more difficult commandments in the Torah of Moses here:

• Slavery is permissible, and fathers may sell their daughters (Ex 21:7; Lev. 25:44).
• You may not contact a woman while she is in her monthly cycle (Lev. 15:19-24).
• Homosexuals are to be put to death (Lev. 20:13)
• You must put someone to death for working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2).
• You cannot leave your homes to work on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29).
• You should keep a completely kosher diet (Lev. 11:10).
• You should not allow anyone with physical blemishes to come before the altar of the LORD (Lev. 21:16-20).
• You should never plant two types of crops in the same field (Lev. 19:19).
• You should never wear garments that have two types of fabric (e.g., no cotton/polyester blends) (Deut 22:11).
• You should publicly execute anyone who curses or blasphemes (Lev. 24:10-20). 
• You must burn to death those who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14).
• You should put to death a rebellious child (Deut 21:18-22).
• You must pay for (and marry) a virgin you seduced (Exodus 22:16).
• You must destroy all places of idolatry in the Land (Deut 7:2, 12:2).
• You are commanded to burn apostate cities and kill all the inhabitants (Deut 13:15-17) the cherem - including babies and women.
• You also must kill all magicians, witches or wizards among the people (Deut 18:10)
• You must hang a blasphemer and an idolater (Deut 21:22).
• In courts of law, you may not take evidence from a woman (Deut 24:17).
• You must marry your brother's wife when your brother dies childless (Deut 25:5). 
• If you take a female prisoner of war and seduce her, she will become a slave with certain rights, and if you later dislike her, you can grant her freedom, but you cannot sell her to another slave owner (Deut. 21:11-15).

Just curious shar,  do you Believe all of the above should be completely adhered to?  I especially like the one that says you should never wear garments that have two types of fabrics.  Do you follow that one too?  Im sure you have a response as to why you don't have to follow most of these but you should follow the dietary command so lay it on me sister (and saved sinner too).

in love,

spock

 

[Shar]

11 minutes ago, Spock said:

I think I'm understanding you better here. You believe we should continue to follow and obey God's written word as prescribed in Torah (the 270 or so mitzvahs that are still applicable today)  not merely the interpretation provided by the rabbis  (rabbinical Judaism) as set forth in the Talmud.  Ok, let's go with that. Then I suppose you believe you should adhere to ALL of the applicable 270 mitzvahs and not just the dietary mitzvahs.  Ok, read on from Hebrew4Christians:

As you know, there are some people within the Messianic movement (as well as legalistic churches) who claim that followers of Jesus should become "Torah Observant." Since Jesus was a Torah-observant Jew, they argue, and we are called to be His followers, then we ourselves should become Torah observant, too.  As well-meaning as this sounds, however, this is specious reasoning, based on a variety of exegetical errors, not the least of which is the confusion between the idea of Torah and Covenant.  Nonetheless, I wonder if these legalists have ever taken the time to actually read the list of the Torah's demands -- all 613 of them? As a reminder, let me list a few of the more difficult commandments in the Torah of Moses here:

• Slavery is permissible, and fathers may sell their daughters (Ex 21:7; Lev. 25:44).
• You may not contact a woman while she is in her monthly cycle (Lev. 15:19-24).
• Homosexuals are to be put to death (Lev. 20:13)
• You must put someone to death for working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2).
• You cannot leave your homes to work on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29).
• You should keep a completely kosher diet (Lev. 11:10).
• You should not allow anyone with physical blemishes to come before the altar of the LORD (Lev. 21:16-20).
• You should never plant two types of crops in the same field (Lev. 19:19).
• You should never wear garments that have two types of fabric (e.g., no cotton/polyester blends) (Deut 22:11).
• You should publicly execute anyone who curses or blasphemes (Lev. 24:10-20). 
• You must burn to death those who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14).
• You should put to death a rebellious child (Deut 21:18-22).
• You must pay for (and marry) a virgin you seduced (Exodus 22:16).
• You must destroy all places of idolatry in the Land (Deut 7:2, 12:2).
• You are commanded to burn apostate cities and kill all the inhabitants (Deut 13:15-17) the cherem - including babies and women.
• You also must kill all magicians, witches or wizards among the people (Deut 18:10)
• You must hang a blasphemer and an idolater (Deut 21:22).
• In courts of law, you may not take evidence from a woman (Deut 24:17).
• You must marry your brother's wife when your brother dies childless (Deut 25:5). 
• If you take a female prisoner of war and seduce her, she will become a slave with certain rights, and if you later dislike her, you can grant her freedom, but you cannot sell her to another slave owner (Deut. 21:11-15).

Just curious shar,  do you Believe all of the above should be completely adhered to?  I especially like the one that says you should never wear garments that have two types of fabrics.  Do you follow that one too?  Im sure you have a response as to why you don't have to follow most of these but you should follow the dietary command so lay it on me sister (and saved sinner too).

in love,

spock

 

I think this could be an interesting discussion, however, I do not believe it belongs here where we are discussing if it is OK to eat unclean food.  This is best served by starting a new thread.  It would take forever to answer each one and determine whether these apply today.  Just off the bat, I see a lot are civil laws that were unique to people living in the land Israel (like that stated to destroy all places of idolatry in the Land.  "The Land" was Israel only).  In our land, we would not hang a man for blasphemy or not take testimony from a woman in court.  Please start a new thread if you are really interested in all these.  Thanks