post Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted January 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Shar said: Then if your logic stands as correct, then why did the apostles after Christ and the early believers remain Kosher and the other Levitical laws? again, not my logic, but what is plainly written in the Mark's gospel. what could Mark have meant other than "Jesus declared all foods clean" when he (not post) said "Jesus declared all foods clean" ? or do you reject that the book of Mark is scripture? do you also reject Acts? what did Christ mean then, when He told Peter "what God has made clean, do not call common" ? do you also reject Colossians? what then did Paul mean when he said "do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink" ? do you think Christ and His apostles spoke of doing evil in order by metaphor to teach good? because if you do, we need to have an entirely different discussion before we can talk about food. as far as what the early believers did or did not do - don't you accept Acts? what was instructed by the council of Jerusalem? and do you accept that Justin Martyr was an early believer? what then did he mean when he said We neither accord with the Jews in their peculiarities in regard to food nor in their sacred days. -- Apologies Sec. 21 ? i'm sorry that i'm new here, and apparently taking some things for granted. let's put all these things in the open then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shar Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 327 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 232 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/01/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2016 18 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: They would not have. They were still under the Old Covenant. I think I would have to disagree that this would mean Jesus did not intend for His words to mean everything. Later in Acts Peter is shown a sheet filled with all kinds of animals, including those unclean under the Old Covenant and he is told to kill and eat. Paul later tells believers to eat anything they find in the market place and ask no questions - meat in the market place were from animals offered to idols and these animals could be anything. He tells them to eat anything put before them by their host, who could be pagan, at a feast and ask no questions. All this ties back to Jesus' words here: “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” The reason for the dietary laws was to teach them to be mindful of what they allowed in - food to their bodies, and what they allow into their heart. This is part of the taskmaster Paul spoke of that a young child in school needs, and when one is a child, one needs very concrete lessons, for a child does not think abstractly. But now that Christ has come and perfectly fulfilled all the law, The New Covenant is instituted and Paul, the Jew of the Jews, told his listeners that then, at that time, Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." For me this presents one cohesive whole on how to understand this subject. The sheet of unclean animals was not a new food plan. It was a dream to show later that Jews were to not consider Gentiles unclean now because G-d had open salvation to them. Hence, thereafter Peter went into the Gentile home of Cornelius to tell him of Yeshua. Otherwise, Peter would have never stepped foot into the Gentile home. Second, the marketplace. Paul was clear in other scripture, not to eat meat you knew was sacrificed to idols. However, in the marketplace you could not always tell for sure if it had been offered. In this case, your conscience could be clear if you did so without knowing. Again, did not say, go ahead and eat any meat. Many types of animals, clean and unclean were offered in these pagan temples. He was talking about clean meat offered and now in the marketplace. Not porky the pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Spock said: Brother I truly love your passion and zeal for the things of God, I really do.......but.... it just doesn't make sense to me to think God cares that much about people eating a ham sandwich because it is not coming from the Heart. there is a calling brother that is holy and pure, and not everyone is able to see this, but as we make our selves pure by the word and it cleanses us, the washing , and the regeneration of the ,word of God , in all that He tells us , we follow , it is more of setting our selves apart as believers, and not followers of the world , if we had no differences then no one could tell who was Gods , and who was not, this is a deliberate act of faith to carry out to be in faith of what we believe and why we believe, it is not about so much fighting and debating the dietary law, as it is to obey and follow , and to start abiding in , for if we do not discipline our bodies as well as our minds, then we will not be of good service, for God and we will not be in tune with God, this is a part of trying to dial in your temple, and your spirit in one accord to follow faithfully and be in righteousness before the almighty and holy God, presenting our bodies and our minds on the things above ,and not of the world , it is a conditioning of what is right and what is wrong in the eyes of God, for every thing we do and every action we take , is geared to the world or to the God above, we are accountable for every idle word spoken out of our mouths, and by the words and actions we take now , will be what is used against or for us , in salvation by Grace , or condemnation by rejection, for the judgments are set and the case is open, if we are faith ful and believe in Yashua and what the cross, did for us , and surrender our selves, we then call upon the name and we are saved, . now after that , we are accounted to be and we need to make sure we are being worthy and responsible for our actions and how we have been to others , is Key, love God with all your heart mind and soul , and then love your neighbor as your self, but never forsake the word of he lord , and the instructions and commandments that got you here, it is by them as a guide, an now we give back to others for instruction and correction to others as a , true believer in the faith , and in the name of Christ Jesus , discipline your self and God will draw near to you , it is communicating with God , and loving Him as He loves you , this debate stuff is l smoke and mirrors for satan to confuse and deceive , but we must clear our minds and focus , on the cross and what He would do , and what He did,, this brings us in to holiness, of His love for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.85 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2016 20 minutes ago, Shar said: Then if your logic stands as correct, then why did the apostles after Christ and the early believers remain Kosher and the other Levitical laws? Shar, im not post but if I may get in on this....maybe the Apostles you referenced continued not to eat porky because they didn't want to be a stumbling block to their fellow Jews. See Romans 14. Also, didn't paul/Saul continue to practice some Jewish customs to show Jews, "hey, I'm still one of you guys, listen to my message!" (My paraphrase) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted January 2, 2016 11 minutes ago, Spock said: Post, i didn't realize those words "Jesus declared all foods clean" was actually in the bible but it is, so I apologize thinking you drew that conclusion. I noticed many translations put those words in brackets which is of itself interesting to me. I suppose man added those brackets. Nevertheless, I agree with that conclusion- "in the stomach" is nothing compared to "in the heart." And I mean NOTHING! no problem - we're all here to learn from each other, and put here to build each other up. how could i hold it against you that you didn't see, if now you do! i'm glad that God has used me to bring this to your attention! - & i think a lot of people don't realize that's in the Bible. it's not in Matthew's gospel where the same discussion is recorded (ch. 15). most English translations put that in parenthesis ( ) - different from brackets [ ] as i understand it, brackets are usually there to indicate that something isn't in the Greek specifically but is inferred by way of translating a word that doesn't have a direct literal counterpart in English, or for something that's in some Greek manuscripts but not in others. as far as this particular verse in Mark, though, i've never seen a footnote saying that there was any dispute over whether it belonged or that it's not what is literally in the Greek. i think the parenthesis are there because it's a 'parenthetical statement' - that Mark himself added according to his understanding, while recording Christ's own dialogue. an 'aside' - just like Mark 7:3-4 are, and are also in parenthesis - a thing Mark added by way of explanation. that Christ is talking about much more than just food here, and that what's "in the stomach" is nothing compared to what's "in the heart" -- amen! 100% with you there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shar Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 327 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 232 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/01/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, post said: again, not my logic, but what is plainly written in the Mark's gospel. what could Mark have meant other than "Jesus declared all foods clean" when he (not post) said "Jesus declared all foods clean" ? or do you reject that the book of Mark is scripture? do you also reject Acts? what did Christ mean then, when He told Peter "what God has made clean, do not call common" ? do you also reject Colossians? what then did Paul mean when he said "do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink" ? do you think Christ and His apostles spoke of doing evil in order by metaphor to teach good? because if you do, we need to have an entirely different discussion before we can talk about food. as far as what the early believers did or did not do - don't you accept Acts? what was instructed by the council of Jerusalem? and do you accept that Justin Martyr was an early believer? what then did he mean when he said We neither accord with the Jews in their peculiarities in regard to food nor in their sacred days. -- Apologies Sec. 21 ? i'm sorry that i'm new here, and apparently taking some things for granted. let's put all these things in the open then I would appreciate a response to my question. If this is meant that all food is clean for consumption, they why did the Apostles and the early believers remain Kosher and keep the Levitical Laws, after Jesus died? It is simple, because the dietary laws were not changed. I clearly accept ACTS. Read Acts 15. They placed initially 4 laws on the Gentiles coming into the synagogue. This was so they would be able to approach and be near a Jew so they could learn the faith. It states that let's not make it difficult on them. Moses is taught in the synagogue every Sabbath. In other words, The Gentiles will learn as they study and learn the faith and then will be able to come more fully into what is required of them without overwhelming them, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted January 2, 2016 13 minutes ago, Spock said: I agree with your analysis here sister, but obviously, it's not as clear to everyone as evidenced by the responses we can see on this thread. That's what makes a discussion board so interesting. Iron sharpening iron. someone said "where iron sharpens iron, sparks fly" how true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Shar said: The sheet of unclean animals was not a new food plan. It was a dream to show later that Jews were to not consider Gentiles unclean now because G-d had open salvation to them. Hence, thereafter Peter went into the Gentile home of Cornelius to tell him of Yeshua. Otherwise, Peter would have never stepped foot into the Gentile home. Second, the marketplace. Paul was clear in other scripture, not to eat meat you knew was sacrificed to idols. However, in the marketplace you could not always tell for sure if it had been offered. In this case, your conscience could be clear if you did so without knowing. Again, did not say, go ahead and eat any meat. Many types of animals, clean and unclean were offered in these pagan temples. He was talking about clean meat offered and now in the marketplace. Not porky the pig. And gentiles ate the foods the Old Testament declared unclean for the Jews. Peter was not told to convert them to keeping the Mosaic law of what foods to eat. In accepting the Gentiles into the Church, they also accepted their food practices as well, which puts additional light onto what Peter was told in his vision. He was not to declare unclean what God declared clean and at the same time was shown all those animals which previously were unclean. The Gentile christians did not keep the dietary laws of the Jews. The Gentile christians were never told not to eat pork. They WERE told, for the sake of the Jewish people among whom they were living to abstain from foods offered to idols and to meats from strangled animals: Acts 15 19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. Why does he say he said this? 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” Because those things would offend the Jews in every city where gentile believers also lived. And this is also in line with what Paul tells us about eating anything - we have the liberty in Christ to eat anything, but we do not have the liberty in Christ to make another stumble by our liberty, so if around those who would be offended by our liberty in what we eat, we are to abstain from eating those things so we don't become a stumbling block to others: 1 Cor 8 13Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble. The dietary laws did not apply to them any more than it applies to us today. The law of Love is to govern all our actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SINNERSAVED Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 23 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: Do you realize that to those of us who don't agree with you, that it looks like to us you are taking scripture to say what you want it to say and not what the Spirit is saying, and we are trying to bring this to light? Do you understand your words here can be said right back to you? YES , you can perceive it that way if you wish, but what is truth ? if there is two views , and they are opposite, then can we both be right ? or is one going to be right , and one worng ? which ever way you look at it , is what you make of it, in your mind, but check this out, if I am wrong and you are right , did I give you wrong to derail you , or did I give you wrong to help you , for all opinion was given if I be right or wrong , it was to bring Gods love and understanding to you , it is my conviction to point you to the cross , and not away from it , so am I wrong ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 2, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.68 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, Spock said: Shar, im not post but if I may get in on this....maybe the Apostles you referenced continued not to eat porky because they didn't want to be a stumbling block to their fellow Jews. See Romans 14. Also, didn't paul/Saul continue to practice some Jewish customs to show Jews, "hey, I'm still one of you guys, listen to my message!" (My paraphrase) Paul said he became all things to all people, to the Jew as a Jew, to the gentile as a gentile - because he was free in Christ to do so. Peter also did the same, and ate with the gentiles their food. When the Jews who held that the law must be kept came, Peter, who had been eating with the gentiles, changed his behavior because he was afraid of them, and Paul rebuked him for his hypocrisy Gal 2 11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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