Where do you go when you die?

[SDAinFLA]

Re 2 Cor. 5:4. the new desire is not the desire for death which unclothes the spirit. That would be unnatural. The Christian looks beyond death for the time when he is clothed with the new body. Death is not the hope of a Christian. The resurrection & the new body surely is.

You got it!

2 Corinthians 5:4 says - "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

Paul, when talkiing about our heavenly bodies says "not that we would be unclothed"....in other words, not that we would die.

Paul knew that right after death he would not get his heavenly reward, that's why he later stated "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:7-8

Paul looked to the 2nd coming of the lord, not to death because he knew that is when he would receive his heavenly reward.

[Arthur Durnan]

However in NO instance did the Apostle Paul teach EGHW's "annihilation" or "soul-sleep" hypothesis. As I said earlier - and to which you didn't respond - if one is created, then "annihilated," then one could not be RESURRECTED but only RE-CREATED. The Holy scriptures do not teach a RE-CREATION after death & passing into the Lord's very Presence - only a RESURRECTION.

And too, your description of the 19th-century term, "Seven-day Adventist" doesn't really answer my query and leave much to be desired. I don't know why you would wish to drag Lutherans, Anglicans, Whatever into the conversation and make THEM part of your answer and a reason why you call yourself by an UNKNOWN Bible term. Does it not occur to you in even a weak moment that those term you run with are THEMSELVES unheard of anywhere in Holy Writ. Which leads back to my original query to you: Which disciple - or apostle - ever once claimed to be what YOU claim to be in this 21st. century? Was it Peter? Could it have been Andrew? Or James? There MUST be SOME REASON why you go by a specific term which was never employed by even one disciple or by our Lord Himself? It really has ZIP to do with Holy Scripture (and most divisive to boot) when one starts (about 100-years or so ago) to call himself an "SDA." I earnestly believe you should work hard to shed that unscriptural term UNKNOWN anywhere in either the Old or New Testaments.

Finally "BudMan" is right on: "sleep" applies to the BODY only, unless, of course, one follows either Charles Taze Russell or Ellen Gould Harmon White on the matter.

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[SDAinFLA]

However in NO instance did the Apostle Paul teach EGHW's "annihilation" or "soul-sleep" hypothesis. As I said earlier - and to which you didn't respond - if one is created, then "annihilated," then one could not be RESURRECTED but only RE-CREATED. The Holy scriptures do not teach a RE-CREATION after death & passing into the Lord's very Presence - only a RESURRECTION

Aurthur, I didn't respond to this piece, because I'm not sure what this annihilation doctrine is. I have searched the EGW website to see what your talking about, but I couldn't find it. Maybe you could clarify this with a quote from her or something.

However, I will try to clarify (with scripture) what I believe about the soul.

We all understand that the spirit goes back to God.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

The soul is sorta like "the body" or "person"

This is why Luke says "And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls." Acts 27:37

This is why Moses says "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7

The soul can die. A dead soul rests in the grave until Jesus comes.

However, the spirit returns to God who gave it...and we see that Jesus confirms that when it says "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." Luke 23:46

God wanted man to understand from the beginning that there is no consciousness in death...and so He told Adam "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3:19

I hope this helps explain somewhat. God bless

[SDAinFLA]

Does it not occur to you in even a weak moment that those term you run with are THEMSELVES unheard of anywhere in Holy Writ. Which leads back to my original query to you: Which disciple - or apostle - ever once claimed to be what YOU claim to be in this 21st. century? Was it Peter? Could it have been Andrew? Or James? There MUST be SOME REASON why you go by a specific term which was never employed by even one disciple or by our Lord Himself? It really has ZIP to do with Holy Scripture (and most divisive to boot) when one starts (about 100-years or so ago) to call himself an "SDA." I earnestly believe you should work hard to shed that unscriptural term UNKNOWN anywhere in either the Old or New Testaments.

Arthur, I am sorry that the name 7th day adventist offends you. I have tried to show you how the name Seventh Day Adventists came about. I don't know how else to convey the information to you. However, I don't understand the point that you are trying to make. Just because a name isn't referred to in God's Word doesn't necessariy mean that it's bad...or you would need to change the name "Aurthur" also.

Aurthur, use the message board wisely. We are waisting this website arguing whether the name 7th Day Adventist is valid or not.

The name of the church is no so important to me...it's what the church believes teaches that matter.

My goal is not to offend you and I hope your goal is the same.

Thanks for reading.

[Old Timer]

 

Hey, "Old-Timer," Good Morning to you! What you perceive as "hatred" is in reality a very thorough awareness & a Bible-based denunciation of the weird and false tenets of one Ellen Gould Harmon White such as her "1844 investigative judgment," "utter destruction theory," "forbidden foods" (in spite of 1 Cor.10:27; Col. 2:16; etc.), "the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath-keeping," "the atonement of Christ NOW being made IN HEAVEN, not on the cross," etc, etc. on into the night. 

 

The Apostle Paul clearly stated, "Reprove the unfruitfuol works of darkness," which means to rebuke to one's face. Fairly straightforward, yes? Why not always test strange tenets & false assumptions from Holy Writ & in a manner that cannot be gainsaid? 

 

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Arthur, I really am not aware of Ellen White's teaching. I have never read anything by her nor do I intend to. The question of this thread is soul-sleep and my opinion is that there is much in the Bible that supports this concept and very little (although admittedly some) that refutes it.

You quote Paul to me, "Remove the unfruitful works of darkness..." and I really don't think that applies to the subject of this thread. I am not discussing the writing of Ellen White or the teaching of the SDA church. To call everyone and everything you don't agree with as espousing the works of Satan is carrying things a bit too far. It was Satan in the Garden that said, "Surely you shall not die?" I could claim that those who teach the soul never dies or rests are repeating the words of Satan. However, I don't do that or think that!

Reading Daniel yesterday I stumbled across this which I had missed,

Dan. 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Now please don't tell me I am talking about annihilation. I am not. I agree completely that the spirit or soul returns, on death, to God who gave it. It is the conscious state of that soul that is in question. I have never put together a list of references that refer to the dead as sleeping or at rest but it would be interesting to do so. I think you would find it far outweighs those verses that indicate the idea of "going to heaven."

[bukeye2745]

I agree that when we die we sleep. I don't believe anyone has gone there except Yeshua.

I believe "hell" is the grave. Christ was there and He was the "first fruits" to come out of hell.

The Spirit is the "breath of life" and yes it does return to "God who gave it".

I also agree it is "fruitless" to argue because once we die the next thing we will see will be Yeshua coming on the clouds and "the dead in Christ shall rise first". So it matters not.

God bless!

Jen

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Well said, I agree to the above post. I think the scritpure is very clear concerning this matter disregarding any denomination of church.

[Arthur Durnan]

Let's see if I interpret "annihilationism" correctly: (1) We are born, then born again; (2) We die, then are "annihilated" (ie, cease to exist); (3) Then we are brought back from "annihilation" & "cessation of existence" in order to stand before God; (4) Then, we are "re-annihilated" & sent back into "nothingness. Quite interesting......except dare one publish such contrary-to-Scripture bilge! How can anyone be RESURRECTED if one has suffered "annihilation"? One would have to be RE-CREATED (if one has been "annihilated"), and therefore would be someone else, not the former. Why be yourself when you can be somebody else, Gridley? Hmm.

I wholeheartedly prefer the Apostle Paul's fantastically & school-room obvious declaration: "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." NOT present with "annihilation." NOT "ceasing to exist." Then, too, how can DEATH be "GAIN" if one "ceases to exist" - wouldn't it be a zillion times GAIN by continuing to live ion earth and continue witnessing for Jesus Christ than becoming "non-existent" as the cults teach? Of course, of course.

Truth to tell, the cult of "Jehovah's False Witnesses" - sometimes this particular post comes across as a "Jehovah's False Witness" funeral sermon on this subject - and its recurring fiction surely raises its head in a variety of strange places, yes?

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[bukeye2745]

I'm not a JW first of all.

I never said a lot of the stuff you said either.

The dead in Christ shall rise first, along with those that are still alive who will meet with Him in the clouds and go to where it is that He will rule. David's throne.

The White Throne Judgement isn't until after the 1000 year reign and that's when the rest will rise and be judged along with those that live and still reject Him during the 1000 years. They will be annihilated.

That is how I see it.

Ok. Now you can go ahead with more sarcasm but unless you can prove to me scripturally that there are people up in heaven throwing pennies down then I don't need the sarcasm.

God bless.

Jen

[Lionroot]

What an incredible thread...I just finished reading the whole thing. Like threads all over the net this one has meandered far from where it started, but if you do not mind I would like to return to one of the original quotations:

 

Where do we go when we die? To heaven or sleep until the resurrection? 

 

Luk 16:22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 

Luk 16:23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 

 

This was quickly labelled a parable, and dismissed prematurely. However, unlike other parables Christ speaks here of a specific person. If it were a parable, one would expect to see something vague along the lines of "a beggar" as in all other parables, but we see a specific individual named. Why? If this is only a parable why not leave the beggar unnamed? How is the "story" strengthened by this figure having a name? I believe that it reveals that this is a real person and these were real events.

Additionally this "story" is completely compatible with what the scriptures say happened to Abraham, "he was gathered to his people"(some translations say ancestors). Which is exactly what the LORD said would happen to him. As opposed to any teaching that suggests he went somewhere else, slept, or was annihilated.

Just my two cents,

God Bless,

Robert