The Battle between Good and Evil

[Kan]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

Pride. 

Yes, the central coal in the fire was his pride. Everything stemmed from that, but now comes the second part of the question - what were his claims against the government of God?

He started a campaign against God by which he managed to get nearly half of heaven on his side. How did he do it? He must have had some 'reasonable' arguments?

We know that if he had been open about his feelings, (which Jesus revealed was murder) he could have been punished on the spot and the rest of the universe would have understood if they had watched the development of the whole scenario. But here was a hidden issue, that if punished, would seem like a miscarriage of justice.

Jesus said, he was a liar, so we know that his intentions and feelings were hidden. We might say, his agenda was hidden for a long time until war broke out in heaven, and subsequently the battle of evil against good is written in earth's history. We don't need to expand here, ....but we want to trace a particular agenda which is behind all of his efforts.

What is that agenda and why? What argument or theme runs through all of his claims and attacks on God or His people?

The two themes of God's intention and Satan's intention are named in the Bible as "The mystery of godliness (or God)" and "The mystery of iniquity (or Satan). 

Prophecy predicts in Rev 10 that the mystery of God will be finished or completed, and so will the mystery of iniquity reveal itself, in this final part of the battle.

[gdemoss]

15 hours ago, Kan said:

The devil is the "prince of this world" and power of the air - which is another way of saying he is powerless, as Paul said I fight, but not as one who beats the air... we are dealing with principalities and powers, rather than the flesh. Wickedness in high places is something Paul says we deal with, so it is speaking of earthly powers, corruption in rule, not just politics, but nearly all human relationships where inequality raises its ugly head. 

As for the power of lightning, there is no doubt that he and his hosts play with the elements of nature to cause havoc and destruction. See Job 1:16, 19, people thought that fire was raining down from God, See Rev 13:13. and a great wind which tore down a house (made of stone in those days) and killed all the occupants. 

You are free to disagree.  You asked, I offered.  I believe much different from you but did not get my ideas from anything other than believing what I read to be true at face value.  By that I mean to say that when the scripture says that God is spirit/breath/air/pnema and that angels/demons/messangers are also in the form of spirit/breath/air/pnema but rather created while there is only one true God which is Spirit, I believe it.

We are said to speak by a spirit.  I believe it.  

This simple childish approach to scripture has taken me to new heights in my walk with God and caused me to be continually elevated in my life.  We readily accept that communications can be sent through the air wirelessly but do not accept that the heaven and the kingdom thereof is in the air all around us invisible to our two eyes yet perceivable by our single spiritual eye.  The things that are seen represent things which are not seen.

Everything is right before our very eyes yet we have no idea what we are looking at.

Peace.

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, Kan said:

Yes, the central coal in the fire was his pride. Everything stemmed from that, but now comes the second part of the question - what were his claims against the government of God?

He started a campaign against God by which he managed to get nearly half of heaven on his side. How did he do it? He must have had some 'reasonable' arguments?

We know that if he had been open about his feelings, (which Jesus revealed was murder) he could have been punished on the spot and the rest of the universe would have understood if they had watched the development of the whole scenario. But here was a hidden issue, that if punished, would seem like a miscarriage of justice.

Jesus said, he was a liar, so we know that his intentions and feelings were hidden. We might say, his agenda was hidden for a long time until war broke out in heaven, and subsequently the battle of evil against good is written in earth's history. We don't need to expand here, ....but we want to trace a particular agenda which is behind all of his efforts.

What is that agenda and why? What argument or theme runs through all of his claims and attacks on God or His people?

The two themes of God's intention and Satan's intention are named in the Bible as "The mystery of godliness (or God)" and "The mystery of iniquity (or Satan). 

Prophecy predicts in Rev 10 that the mystery of God will be finished or completed, and so will the mystery of iniquity reveal itself, in this final part of the battle.

You are trying to approach this by using a comparison with today's governmental structure.  That is not what happened.  God does not have a government, He is God.   When you read the following, realize that Lucifer was not arguing against any law or stance, but his pride destroyed him, believing he was as good as, or even better, than the Father.

Ezekiel 28:13-19

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
¹⁵ You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

“By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

“Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

“You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
¹⁹ All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”

 

We read about his fall in Isaiah 14:12-21

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

“Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

“All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.”

[Kan]

17 hours ago, gdemoss said:

You are free to disagree.  You asked, I offered.  I believe much different from you but did not get my ideas from anything other than believing what I read to be true at face value.  By that I mean to say that when the scripture says that God is spirit/breath/air/pnema and that angels/demons/messangers are also in the form of spirit/breath/air/pnema but rather created while there is only one true God which is Spirit, I believe it.

We are said to speak by a spirit.  I believe it.  

This simple childish approach to scripture has taken me to new heights in my walk with God and caused me to be continually elevated in my life.  We readily accept that communications can be sent through the air wirelessly but do not accept that the heaven and the kingdom thereof is in the air all around us invisible to our two eyes yet perceivable by our single spiritual eye.  The things that are seen represent things which are not seen.

Everything is right before our very eyes yet we have no idea what we are looking at.

Peace.

I think if we sat down and talked in real life, we'd probably agree a lot more, because when we write, we don't have to opportunity synchronize ideas and perspectives. Pardon me for not being in line with you on everything, I don't mind your thoughts at all.

[Kan]

15 hours ago, Davida said:

Your welcome, Kan.  Whatever happened & happens GOD Almighty has foreknowledge and has allowed because HE is Omniscient, Omnipotent Sovereign. GOD is Above His creation. GOD Almighty is Sovereign and in control. All God uses to further His Plan.

Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

Through the angelic rebellion Heaven was purged of this treachery.  As to any further answers on your  2 questions the Bible is silent on that, and we should take it that what God saw in His wisdom to not tell us in the BIBLE-- is for a reason, and that we should be silent on also and not speculate in our ignorance.  No one can answer what the BIBLE does not see fit to tell us.  We will know fully when we are in Heaven. GOD Didn't give us certain details for HIS reasons and if we accept that GOD is our FATHER in Heaven, that HE IS ALL WISE, OMNIPOTENT, OMNIPRESENT, OMNISCIENT, LOVING, INERRANT, JUST, MERCIFUL, --That HE KNOWS BEST and IS SOVEREIGN, FULLY in charge and KNOWS what is Best for all,  we are willing to accept what HE has laid out for us in the BIBLE is SUFFICIENT. Some times the answer to our question is simply that-- it is not yet been revealed to us - and so we need to accept that , otherwise further seeking will lead us to error.  Over focusing upon evil is never a good choice.

These questions seem to go off track,  questions that , this side of Heaven,  are obviously not our business otherwise GOD would have told us so to speculate in ignorance- to me , I would catch my self and stop it right there as  it can be a further symptom of rebelliousness & lack of willingness to fully submit to GOD's Sovereign Will & Plan in Faith. Stick to what the BIBLE tells us and focus your attention to understand  more Fully--- WHO CHRIST IS--  rather than who the devil is. SEEK to KNOW CHRIST JESUS and all the rest will be given you in time.

 

So true, we can only know what God has revealed, and then remain faithful to that alone, without trying to pry the lid off the forbidden. 

But I know that you and the readers have the answers, it is just that you have probably not applied them in this area, because you believe like I did, that the Bible is silent on what happened in heaven before the battle began with mankind involved.

The reason I can confidently say this, is because the principles which we have to deal with are those which Lucifer had to face, we have the same God who made us, and the same issues of disloyalty through sin. Although we are not in the same position as Lucifer so far as slighted privileges go, he has stamped his character onto mankind, in the hope that humans will go over the limits of God's forbearance, and forfeit salvation like he did.

By becoming aware of these great issues in the battle between Christ and Satan, we will have a clearer understanding of what went on in heaven, what has transpired on earth over all these millenniums, and more importantly, what the issues will be in these last days.

[Kan]

16 hours ago, OneLight said:

You are trying to approach this by using a comparison with today's governmental structure.  That is not what happened.  God does not have a government, He is God.   When you read the following, realize that Lucifer was not arguing against any law or stance, but his pride destroyed him, believing he was as good as, or even better, than the Father.

Ezekiel 28:13-19

We read about his fall in Isaiah 14:12-21

 

That's a really good point, as you said there was only God and His creation. The texts you provided make it very clear that pride drives the devil's ambitions, in all time.

Satan must have lied, as Jesus said, he was a murderer and a liar from the beginning, he lied about the character/ intentions of God, he must have insinuated falsehoods about God, while gaining sympathy for his own cause. Quite a fierce misrepresentation.

And we reason that this must have undermined God's authority or rule. I use the term "God's government" in that sense.

Love was to be supreme in heaven, since God is love, so what was the substitute that the angels fell for?

[gdemoss]

2 hours ago, Kan said:

I think if we sat down and talked in real life, we'd probably agree a lot more, because when we write, we don't have to opportunity synchronize ideas and perspectives. Pardon me for not being in line with you on everything, I don't mind your thoughts at all.

Not to mention that I am still growing in my understanding daily. It was tough in spiritual kindergarten but then came first grade and all hell broke loose!  That is why I say you are free to disagree with a  

[Kan]

Does anybody out there want to tell what the issue is between God and Satan, and why this battle is waged on earth involving the human race?

 

 

[gdemoss]

15 minutes ago, Kan said:

Does anybody out there want to tell what the issue is between God and Satan, and why this battle is waged on earth involving the human race?

 

 

In the beginning God was creating his creation which included Satan.  On the sixth day when God created man both male and female, Satan saw an opportunity to take Gods place via the weaker vessel Eve and become the god of the world.  We were caught in the crossfire since we were created servants lower than the angels. Since then God has set a course to redeem man over time.  In the end he will have subdued all principality and power through Christ and the Father shall reign over his Kingdom forever without future incident.

[Kan]

On 12/16/2015 at 7:19 PM, gdemoss said:

In the beginning God was creating his creation which included Satan.  On the sixth day when God created man both male and female, Satan saw an opportunity to take Gods place via the weaker vessel Eve and become the god of the world.  We were caught in the crossfire since we were created servants lower than the angels. Since then God has set a course to redeem man over time.  In the end he will have subdued all principality and power through Christ and the Father shall reign over his Kingdom forever without future incident.

 

Pardon me if I use your post to add about the issues in the battle. But what you said, together with what Onelight and a few others said, summarizes it all.

It's interesting that you bought up "the beginning" - which is mentioned in the message to the last church in Revelation 3:14

Christ is introduced in the letter as "the Amen (or last,) the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

This text reminds us of the promise by God to finish the mystery in the last days of earth. Rev 10.

In the beginning Adam was created perfect - in the image of God, but now the image of God's character as it is revealed in Christ will be reflected in the characters of the last church, that is, if they respond to the message to them. The garment of Christ's righteousness is being offered to them.

"The mystery of godliness" is that a new character can be formed within the old sinful mind - a transformation of mind takes place. It was not a mystery that Adam would reflect God's nature, but for sinners to be made righteous is a miracle that God does through Christ. 

"The mystery of iniquity" is a form of godliness without the power of it. It is a religious exterior, which looks good, but is full of inner lies and hypocrisy. This secrecy has been one cause of a prolonged life for Lucifer, and the prolonged mercy for sinners. Iniquity has to surface completely before the end can come. But more than that, righteousness has to come to fruition in God's people, before the end can come. It has been predicted to come true. The last standoff between Good and Evil will be demonstrated globally, by two distinct classes of people - the righteous and the ones with a form of godliness. The ones without the mark of the beast and the others with it.

So here we have God misrepresented all these years, by Satan, by and through the human race. His case has always been to prove that creatures do not need God to be in authority, and that they have the capacity to be good within themselves, and that they can be their own guides. (Humanism).

The case with God has always been, that if there is love between God and His creatures, then they will be good, because they have been created to be good, that is, to love supremely. And this love is genuine, it is submissive to the higher Love which is God.

The love of the world - does not bow to anyone, except self, and therefor is committing the same sin as Lucifer in heaven.

The question is who do we obey God or man, God or Lucifer?