unworthydude Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 I read an interesting theological book once, can't remember the name, but never the less the premise was that the Baptism of the Spirit was actually a one-time historical event that occurred at Pentecost when the church began. The main passage I remember that was used was... 1Co_12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. The argument was based on the past tense of the language. Not too sure but interesting eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 30 minutes ago, unworthydude said: I read an interesting theological book once, can't remember the name, but never the less the premise was that the Baptism of the Spirit was actually a one-time historical event that occurred at Pentecost when the church began. The main passage I remember that was used was... 1Co_12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. The argument was based on the past tense of the language. Not too sure but interesting eh? That is evidently a misapplication of 1 Cor 12:13 since (1) Paul is addressing the Corinthians long after the Day of Pentecost, and (2) this verse is about how the Holy Spirit "immerses" believers into the Body of Christ. On the Day of Pentecost, Christ poured out the Holy Spirit from Heaven and "baptized" all those apostles, disciples, and new converts with the gift of the Holy Spirit (and not all spoke in tongues either). We do not hear of 3,000 converted Jews speaking in tongues on that day, although they all did receive Christian baptism in water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Ezra said: That is evidently a misapplication of 1 Cor 12:13 since (1) Paul is addressing the Corinthians long after the Day of Pentecost, and (2) this verse is about how the Holy Spirit "immerses" believers into the Body of Christ. On the Day of Pentecost, Christ poured out the Holy Spirit from Heaven and "baptized" all those apostles, disciples, and new converts with the gift of the Holy Spirit (and not all spoke in tongues either). We do not hear of 3,000 converted Jews speaking in tongues on that day, although they all did receive Christian baptism in water. Evidently? Not very convincing for me sorry. 1. It doesn't matter when Paul addressed this issue. That's an anachronism and irrelevant to the premise. 2. You are simply asserting your premise as an argument but the premise is that which is in question. The question I am attempting to answer is: what is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? You are assuming that it's an ongoing experience, right? I'm arguing that it could be a historical event. You can't claim I'm wrong by simply asserting your position. Your position doesn't actually negate mine. You have to prove that I am wrong by showing proof that it's not historical but ongoing. It may be evident to you but not to me based on that kind of argument. Immerses? Where did you get immersion in 1 Cor 12:13? Acts 10:45 includes the gentiles into the church. I'm fine with anybody disproving my argument but you need to argue better to persuade me it's wrong. Thanks for the challenge. 1Co_12:30 ...Do all speak with tongues?.. Edited January 18, 2016 by unworthydude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 1 hour ago, unworthydude said: The argument was based on the past tense of the language. Not too sure but interesting eh? Since you were not too sure to begin with, what makes you so sure suddenly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 Just now, Ezra said: Since you were not too sure to begin with, what makes you so sure suddenly? I'm not. It's the process of critical thinking using negation. It's testing a truth claim to see if it either stands or falls. If you can argue the premise and prove it's weakness then I should not commit to it. It's an exercise in reasoning for truth's sake. That is why I thank you for your effort to dismantle what I put forward. It's not personal at all. Truth is objective and we test it by challenging it. If it stands then we can be more confident and assured we are on the right path. I commit to it tentatively to see if it holds water. If not, let it go. This doctrine is one of those areas that evidence is not so abundant so it makes it harder to get behind what has been proposed by the denominations. Forums are great for this. People can tear into your view and if you are willing to learn, although frustrating as the process is, it can benefit you in the long run. I have walked away from ideas I was clinging to that weren't very strong. I'm not talking about Christianity as a whole. I am firm in my belief in Jesus Christ. He has proven Himself to me personally and I praise him everyday for His grace. I'm more talking about doctrinal issues that require some digging into and questioning. Always argue for what you belief until you are proven wrong. Please forgive me if I come off harsh. I love you bro/sis in Christ. Sometimes arguing can sound harsh but it's like testing your engine. You have to ref it up to see how it sounds. See if there are any issues clanks or ding sounds in it. That is why they have debate teams in college. To learn how to be objective and only hold to the proven ideas. I might walk away thinking you had a great point and believe what you believe. You never know. That is why God called us to go into the world like Paul did and reason with the world and invite them into His kingdom. We can do that together before we go out and disciple others. Sorry, this is so long. I have no idea how to be succinct. hahaha 1Th_5:21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. Act_17:11 These people were more receptive than those in Thessalonica. They were very willing to receive the message, and every day they carefully examined the Scriptures to see if those things were so. Isa_1:18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 15 minutes ago, unworthydude said: This doctrine is one of those areas that evidence is not so abundant so it makes it harder to get behind what has been proposed by the denominations. So you are not convinced that the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit is an ongoing baptism which applies to every person who gets saved. Well answering a few questions from Scripture should give you confirmation of this truth. 1. Why is the Holy Spirit given to the sinner who repents and believes? 2. Who is the One who gives this gift? 3. What does the word "baptism" mean in this context? 4. What is the difference between the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit and the baptism BY the Holy Spirit? And does the NT ever mention the baptism OF the Holy Spirit? 5. What is the filling (or fulness) of the Holy Spirit? 6. Is speaking in tongues the primary evidence of being filled with the Spirit? 7. Is there such a things "a second blessing" or is that a misapplication of Scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthydude Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Junior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 61 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 3 minutes ago, Ezra said: So you are not convinced that the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit is an ongoing baptism which applies to every person who gets saved. Well answering a few questions from Scripture should give you confirmation of this truth. 1. Why is the Holy Spirit given to the sinner who repents and believes? There are several reasons. He was given to us as seal (2 Cor 1:22). To pour out the love of God in our hearts (Rom 5:5). To receive power to witness (Act 1:8). To help us (John 14:26... To give us a fruitful walk (Gal 5:22) Um, I'm sure there's more but that's what I've got for now. 2. Who is the One who gives this gift? The Father. Joh_14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you. 3. What does the word "baptism" mean in this context? Thayer's Lexicon G907 βαπτίζω baptizō Thayer Definition: 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) 2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe 3) to overwhelm Part of Speech: verb 4. What is the difference between the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit and the baptism BY the Holy Spirit? And does the NT ever mention the baptism OF the Holy Spirit? You'd have to show me some scriptures so that I can go to the Greek and see if and how those read. 5. What is the filling (or fulness) of the Holy Spirit? Having read the texts that use this phrase, I would feel safe to say that the Spirit's filling was an empowering of God during certain times when a person was close to God or was used by God for a particular purpose. 6. Is speaking in tongues the primary evidence of being filled with the Spirit? Maybe for some. 1Co_12:30 ...Do all speak with tongues?.. Here is another verse that seems to imply a one time occurrence. Eph_4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 On 12/14/2015 at 6:05 PM, *Zion* said: Is it the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit? I was prayed for to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and I was, and I speak in tongues, but in recent years I have heard more and more about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire, which some say is different, and some think is the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit. If I have not yet received His baptism of fire, I sure want it! You'd think I would know, but when I was prayed for to be filled it was a gentle, yet rewarding instance, and I pray to be continually filled with Him, which He is faithful to do. I know we are not supposed to go by feeling, but I simply seek to understand what these two happenings are. A dear brother in Christ pointed out to me, that if we look at both events in terms of language alone, it is possible to immerse someone in water, without the water filling them up on the inside. Is it so with the Holy Spirit, though, in terms of His baptism? Tell me what you think, or know: are the two things the same, or not? I am praying for the answer, but let me know what understanding God leads you to also. Let's search Him out together, Amen? I tend to think that it is all one experience. If there is a difference in the baptism of the Holy Ghost as you experienced it, with the evidence of speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, and a baptism of fire, I am unaware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamelasv Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 132 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 582 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/21/1969 Share Posted January 18, 2016 'Be filled with the Holy Spirit.' Said Apostle Paul. So it is something we do evidentally. Singing praises to God ushers in more of His presence. I know from experience. Speaking His Word does too. (Ex: reading the bible outloud). Praying in tongues ( or 'the spirit') if you can. Tho I don't do this often. Just doesn't happen. That's really all I can think of. Ephesians 5:18 'and not get drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.' Bad attitudes, anger, dissentions, etc, usher out the Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted January 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 18, 2016 14 hours ago, unworthydude said: Here is another verse that seems to imply a one time occurrence. Eph_4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Depends on whether you mean for the individual believer or for the Church as a whole (which you mentioned as a notion held by someone else). Yes the sealing of the Spirit is in fact a one-time occurrence for each individual. As to "with", "by" and "of" please note that we do not find the baptism "of" the Holy Ghost in Scripture: CHRIST BAPTIZES "WITH" I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Mt 3:11) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Acts 1:5) WE ARE BAPTIZED "BY" THE HOLY SPIRIT For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we beJews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.( 1 Cor 12:13) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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