"I will cut in two my other staff, Unity..."

[WilliamL]

Zechariah 11:14  And I [YHWH] will cut in two my other staff, Unity/Ties that Bind, that I might break the brotherhood between/among Judah and Israel.

Zechariah received this prophecy 205 years after the Israelites of the Josephite Northern Kingdom were carried off by the Assyrians. (~517 BC to~722 BC.)

1) When is this prophecy fulfilled?

2) Who are Israel and Judah at that time?

3) Where do they dwell?

[unworthydude]

You are asking the right questions. I have theories.

1. Based on Zach 11:13, the union was broken when they paid Judas and murdered Jesus.

2. Israel is all the northern tribes, a.k.a. "Ephraim".  "Judah" is the two southern tribes. (Isa 11:13)

3. "Ephraim" are northern Assyrian Israelites perhaps living in Syria, Turkey and Iran? Jews from Judah are southern Jerusalem Israelites.

 

What is very interesting is that Ezekiel prophecies that God will reunite them both, at the end. (Ezek 37:15-28)

To get even deeper, the antichrist, who God will send against Judah/Jerusalem is called the Assyrian throughout the prophets. (Isa 14:25, Isa 31:8, Mic 5:5-6)

What do you think?

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, unworthydude said:

You are asking the right questions. I have theories.

1. Based on Zach 11:13, the union was broken when they paid Judas and murdered Jesus.

No, that was the first of the two staffs, Beauty. The staff of Unity/Ties that Bind is only broken sometime afterwards.

2. Israel is all the northern tribes, a.k.a. "Ephraim".  "Judah" is the two southern tribes. (Isa 11:13)

3. "Ephraim" are northern Assyrian Israelites perhaps living in Syria, Turkey and Iran? Jews from Judah are southern Jerusalem Israelites.

What is very interesting is that Ezekiel prophecies that God will reunite them both, at the end. (Ezek 37:15-28)

To get even deeper, the antichrist, who God will send against Judah/Jerusalem is called the Assyrian throughout the prophets. (Isa 14:25, Isa 31:8, Mic 5:5-6)

What do you think?

You show evidence of a lot of study, wonderful thing. However, I would argue that present-day Judah has no real brotherhood with any identifiable Josephite peoples of the Middle East. (Who does present-day Judah have a bond of brotherhood with?)

Isaiah 17:3 speaks of the End Time "fortress of Ephraim" that will fail right about the time that Damascus is destroyed, and whose "strong cities" will be forsaken and desolated. There is no Middle Eastern Josephite people that seems to fit the bill.

 

[unworthydude]

Thanks WilliamL. Everyday I find something new and it changes how I understand it all. That is why I say, 'I have theories.' It's good to talk to someone who also delves into the Word. Kudos.

Ok, let's continue to dig together...

You say no but both broken staffs in Zech 11 follow the detestable shepherds who eventually murder Jesus, causing God to annul the covenant. What else has caused the covenant to be changed? (Mar 12:9, Eph 2:14-16)  I see no reason, exegetically, to say that the breaking of the staff, 'Ties that bind' is not also a consequence of the same crimes.

Before Christ, they both had the temple to unite them. but after 70 A.D. they and Judah were separated by location. God had thrown them out of the land.  They both had come back from exile and it would seem that the temple and land was what held them together in solidarity. Maybe, the future temple will be something that brings a false unity between Judah and Ephraim? What's your theory exactly?

Ezr_8:35  At that time those who had come from captivity, the returned exiles, offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel, twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, and as a sin offering twelve male goats. All this was a burnt offering to the LORD.

 

Looking at whether Judah has any brotherhood within the middle east, I'm finding evidence otherwise... First from scripture...

2Ki_18:11  The king of Assyria carried the Israelites away to Assyria and put them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iran

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1442787/jewish/The-Jews-of-Iran.htm

There is also the high probability that many Israelites, historically exiled to Assyria and these middle east cities, no longer know their ancestry. Perhaps, they will only be known when Jesus returns? Tell me your thoughts... Are you thinking that the US is the brotherhood of Judah?  That's an interesting idea there.  I'll have to think about that and read those passages thoroughly.

I had thought that Daniel 11:6 could be a mentioning of the USA.  Scripture uses the term "daughter" to refer to nations who share some kind of metaphorical relationship, such as: daughter of Babylon, thy sister Sodom, daughter of Edom, etc...

If you read in Daniel 11:6, the King of the South = Israel, gets attacked by a King of the North. A king of the north is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 who comes down to specifically attack Israel. There are many passages stating this. The antichrist will come out of the north.

The daughter of the King of the south comes and makes an agreement with the king of the north but her "arm" fails and cannot sustain the king of the south.

Dan 11:6  And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

That sounds like the USA to me. We are becoming less and less a super power. Aren't we headed for a financial collapse? What do you think?

 

 

Edited January 7, 2016 by unworthydude

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, unworthydude said:

... You say no but both broken staffs in Zech 11 follow the detestable shepherds who eventually murder Jesus, causing God to annul the covenant. What else has caused the covenant to be changed? (Mar 12:9, Eph 2:14-16)  I see no reason, exegetically, to say that the breaking of the staff, 'Ties that bind' is not also a consequence of the same crimes.

Before Christ, they both had the temple to unite them. but after 70 A.D. they and Judah were separated by location. God had thrown them out of the land.  They both had come back from exile and it would seem that the temple and land was what held them together in solidarity. Maybe, the future temple will be something that brings a false unity between Judah and Ephraim? What's your theory exactly?

Ezr_8:35  At that time those who had come from captivity, the returned exiles, offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel, twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, and as a sin offering twelve male goats. All this was a burnt offering to the LORD.

You speak of they as if these two peoples were still identifiable as separate entities, but Scripture provides no evidence whatsoever to support this view. Sure, there were some descendants of Joseph mixed in, but they quickly lost their separate identity, and all became known as "Jews." The only separate tribe that existed as a tribe were the Levites. Joseph as a distinctly separate people/nation did not exist in the biblically known world in the first century A.D.

Looking at whether Judah has any brotherhood within the middle east, I'm finding evidence otherwise... First from scripture...

2Ki_18:11  The king of Assyria carried the Israelites away to Assyria and put them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iran

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1442787/jewish/The-Jews-of-Iran.htm

There is also the high probability that many Israelites, historically exiled to Assyria and these middle east cities, no longer know their ancestry. Perhaps, they will only be known when Jesus returns? Tell me your thoughts...

Very true on both points. But more to the point, none of these peoples have anything approaching a brotherhood with Judah (Israel).

Are you thinking that the US is the brotherhood of Judah?  That's an interesting idea there.  I'll have to think about that and read those passages thoroughly.

I had thought that Daniel 11:6 could be a mentioning of the USA.  Scripture uses the term "daughter" to refer to nations who share some kind of metaphorical relationship, such as: daughter of Babylon, thy sister Sodom, daughter of Edom, etc...

If you read in Daniel 11:6, the King of the South = Israel, gets attacked by a King of the North. A king of the north is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 who comes down to specifically attack Israel. There are many passages stating this. The antichrist will come out of the north.

The daughter of the King of the south comes and makes an agreement with the king of the north but her "arm" fails and cannot sustain the king of the south.

Dan 11:6  And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

All of Daniel 11 up to verse 40 has been historically fulfilled. The mighty king that arose out of Greece was Alexander the Great. The kings of the north and south up to verse 36 (+/-) were the kings of the Syrian-based Seleucid and Egyptian Ptolemaic dynasties, respectively; both of which derived from the breakup of Alexanders's Empire. (See Dan. 8:21-22) Everything described in this part of Dan. 11 has been confirmed in detail by historians. A web search will tell you this.

That sounds like the USA to me. We are becoming less and less a super power. Aren't we headed for a financial collapse? What do you think?

The financial collapse is in the news this very week. Worldwide.

Now consider this: Judah did not exist as a distinct nation after the early 2nd century A.D., and Joseph did not exist as a distinct nation after 722 B.C. Judah only again became a distinct nation in 1948 A.D. How could the breaking of the brotherhood have taken place anytime between 520 B.C., when Zechariah received the prophecy, and 1948 A.D.?

If not, that would mean...

[unworthydude]

I don't believe that the tribes of Jospeh/Ephraim or Judah are nations as you describe them. They are prophetically described by God as two ancestral people groups who were exiled and can be defined as such even though they are today known only as Jews. "Jew" came from Judah and is not an accurate term as many "Jews" today are not from Judah but the other tribes, as the 144,000 verses in the book of Rev. attests to. God knows them intimately. When he scattered their nation, did they stop being his people? No, they still existed and this very fact is established all throughout the prophetic passages where he will bring them back together. How can that be if they were not a nation as you say?

I also don't believe that the scholars have Daniel 11 right or much else on eschatology so I guess we are at an impasse. I encourage you to read it on your own apart from what the scholars teach. Did that, been there. The interpretive methodologies developed from higher criticism have done much harm to how God intended His Word to be read in harmonization. Just read Daniel and correlate the vision chapters for similarities and you'll see Daniel 11 is not yet fulfilled.

Hey, it was nice rapping with you. I was hoping you'd clarify your position more.  I don't want to press these issues further as that might be divisive. Thanks for sharing. It always helps to clarify one's own position when hearing what others believe.

God bless you man. Hope the Lord blesses you in your studies!

Edited January 7, 2016 by unworthydude

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, unworthydude said:

I don't believe that the tribes of Jospeh/Ephraim or Judah are nations as you describe them. ...

If they are not, this prophecy of Zechariah is meaningless, because there would be no way to ever know of the prophecy's fulfillment.

I also don't believe that the scholars have Daniel 11 right or much else on eschatology so I guess we are at an impasse. I encourage you to read it on your own apart from what the scholars teach. Did that, been there. The interpretive methodologies developed from higher criticism have done much harm to how God intended His Word to be read in harmonization. Just read Daniel and correlate the vision chapters for similarities and you'll see Daniel 11 is not yet fulfilled.

Daniel 11:40 through ch. 12 are not yet fulfilled. But earlier parts of Dan. 11 are. I don't believe that the many, many details of that portion could match up so precisely with what history records purely by coincidence. (And I have been diligently studying the Bible for over 50 years now, and take nobody's word for nuttin' without thoroughly checking it out.)

 

[Sister]

On 4/1/2016 at 4:51 AM, WilliamL said:

On 4/1/2016 at 4:51 AM, WilliamL said:

 

 

Quote

Zechariah 11:14  And I [YHWH] will cut in two my other staff, Unity/Ties that Bind, that I might break the brotherhood between/among Judah and Israel.

Zechariah received this prophecy 205 years after the Israelites of the Josephite Northern Kingdom were carried off by the Assyrians. (~517 BC to~722 BC.)

 

William and unworthydude,

My dear brothers, please consider;

Quote

1) When is this prophecy fulfilled?

When Christ was crucified.

The answer is here;

 Zechariah 11:11   And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

  Zechariah 11:12   And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

  Zechariah 11:13   And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

What you said is correct, the tribes of Israel and Judah were already separated many years before, so God cannot separate what had already been done, so it's pertaining to something else.

If we even attempt to interpret this with history it will not fit, because it's pertaining to the spiritual.

 

Revelation 5:5   And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Jesus did come from the tribe of Judah, but that tribe he came out of had already lost favour with God.

Jeremiah 44:9   Have ye forgotten the wickedness of your fathers, and the wickedness of the kings of Judah, and the wickedness of their wives, and your own wickedness, and the wickedness of your wives, which they have committed in the land of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem?
 

So when the priesthood was taken of the Levites, and switched to Christ who's lineage goes back to David of Judah, even Abraham,  a new Judah would be formed.  This Judah would be according to Christ's teachings, who established the new covenant.  This is where the separation takes place.  Israel who would reject their Messiah and the new covenant, would be separate from those who follow Christ which are now "spiritual Judah".  It is now according to the heart, and not the flesh.

And if Christ, now being the head of Judah, leads a new tribe of followers who follow after his order, then automatically his believers are spiritual Judah, beause they are of him, Christ.

 

 Zechariah 11:14   Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

Now we may ask, how can God break something that was never joined in the first place if the bond between Israel and followers of Christ were never one in the first place?  Well the answer is simple, there was a common bond to begin with, that the followers of Christ were lead to the SAME GOD, whom Israel served and once trusted. Not a different god, but the same TRUE LIVING GOD, The Lord Almighty who led Israel out of Egypt and gave them all the commandments.  That's the BOND.  THE SAME TRUE GOD of ISRAEL. Now, because of Christ, the bond is broken, because Israel are no longer serving the true God, but the god of Babylon, and Christ's followers are following the true God.

ISRAEL = NATIONAL ISRAEL BECAUSE OF BLOOD/LINEAGE

JUDAH = SPIRITUAL JUDAH NOW, FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST BECAUSE OF FAITH

[WilliamL]

Interesting perspective. But you presume that this speaks of the Church, something the OT prophets knew nothing about. Nor, in my view and that of many others, were never allowed to prophesy about.

13 hours ago, Sister said:

So when the priesthood was taken of the Levites, and switched to Christ...

The Levitical priesthood is unceasing. Jesus initiated a new and higher priesthood, but YHWH has promised this about the Levitical  priesthood:

Jer. 33:20 “Thus says the LORD: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 ‘then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 ‘As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ”

[FresnoJoe]

On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 8:24 AM, WilliamL said:

Interesting perspective. But you presume that this speaks of the Church, something the OT prophets knew nothing about. Nor, in my view and that of many others, were never allowed to prophesy about.

The Levitical priesthood is unceasing. Jesus initiated a new and higher priesthood, but YHWH has promised this about the Levitical  priesthood:

Jeremiah 33:20-23 “Thus says the LORD: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 ‘then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 ‘As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ”

Amen

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:22-27

And Amen

Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him. Deuteronomy 10:9