Why Lutherans Do Not Believe in the Rapture

[thereselittleflower]

Jesus said

• My kingdom is NOT of this world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Esther4:14]

4 hours ago, junobet said:

  On 1/31/2016 at 7:39 PM, Ezra said:

The reason Lutherans may not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is because they are one-step removed from Roman Catholicism.  Because of Augustine, both Catholics and Protestants (which includes Lutherans) chose to become Amillennial. This also is a manifestation of Replacement Theology.  The Church was confused with Israel, and in their minds the Church replaced Israel.

As far as European Christians were concerned, God was finished with Israel, and that could have also been one of the reasons for Anti-Semitism in Europe for centuries.  Lutherans are not too happy about Dispensationalism, which teaches that God has an eternal plan for the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body) and ALSO an eternal plan for the kingdom of Israel on earth (not the state of Israel as we know it, and which rejects Messiah Yeshua ha Mashiach).

 

The reason Lutherans don’t believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that such belief is unbiblical. As seen in the post above to support this rogue 19^th century eschatology one must string verses together that were picked out of their context and understand phrases literally that are clearly not meant to be understood literally, such as the “thousand years” mentioned in Rev. 20.

In my humble opinion we’re right in those 1000 years and will be until their ideal completion. Meanwhile we have a job to do (Mt 28:16-20).

Some may want to call the Apostle Paul confused, but my Church deems him rather trustworthy. If I believe him I can happily say that I am of Abraham’s seed, even though my biological ancestors were probably all gentiles:

Gal. 3:29: “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

So yes, whenever I sing my favourite Christmas Carol “Daughter Zion, oh rejoice!” I know that it’s me and the entire Church that should rejoice. The OT Covenants have been fulfilled in Christ and we are part of the new.   

As for anti-Semitism: Sadly it’s true that Christianity has had anti-Jewish sentiments ever since Jewish Christians  were kicked out of the Synagogues and that the reverberating of these negative sentiments in the Gospel of John for example, has led to much anti-Semitism, especially among Protestants. So I’m glad that my Church just recently took the upcoming 500^th anniversary of reformation as a reason to again distance itself from Luther’s anti-Jewish remarks. (https://www.ekd.de/english/News-news_2015_11_11_ekd_synod_distances_itself_from_luthers_anti_jewish_stance.html)

It’s Christian Zionists that are among todays’ biggest anti-Semites: the events they predict and long for will make the holocaust look lame: “"The Jews die or convert. As a Jew, I can't feel very comfortable with the affections of somebody who looks forward to that scenario," says Gershom Gorenberg, who knows that scenario well. He's the author of the "End of Days," a book about those Christian evangelicals who choose to read the Bible literally. "They don't love real Jewish people. They love us as characters in their story, in their play, and that's not who we are, and we never auditioned for that part, and the play is not one that ends up good for us."” http://www.cbsnews.com/news/falwell-brands-mohammed-a-terrorist/

My quote feature is struggling to include both Ezra and junobet for my response but that is what I am trying to do.  

First, I would like to share that I disagree with both rapture theory and amillenism.  I was taught Amillenism when I was growing up, but it wasn't the same way the Lutheran are saying.  Amillenism is the 1000 years of the church and at the end of the 1000 years there will be no Christianity anymore, and there will a Messianic age when the real Messiah comes.  The 1000 year term is just figurative and could represent much longer than a thousand years, and I was told that the church was all deceived in thinking that Christ would reign in the Messianic age.  

I personally think Amillenism is a skewed version of this teaching.  

However, what this has to do with anit-semitism or the heresy of teaching replacement, which is the real myth, I just can't understand.  I have studied much literature from early Anglo-Saxon period and European literature and I still fail to see where there was ever evidence of what we now call replacement theology post World War 2.  It just doesn't seem to have existed.  Replacement theology is nothing more than evidence of what scriptures refer to in Romans 11:11 " Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."  Shouting accusations that the church is guilty of replacement theory is the same as a group of modern Pharisees trying to find a way to persuade the Christian community to get out their way and worship them rather than Christ.  

When the Jewish community began marketing replacement theology to the Christian community in the aftermath of the Holocaust, it was only in envy of Christianity that has been blessed throughout the years through the acceptance of Christ who came so that whosoever would believe could be saved (John 3:16).  The beauty of this is what can be seen throughout European literature.  

As for the Gospel of John inspiring Anti-Antisemitism.  What the Gospel of John does is tell the truth.  John was a Jew.  Real Jews seek justice, which requires telling the truth.  The book of Proverbs says, "He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous.  Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord."  What this means is that when John is writing the Gospel, he cannot lie to make wickedness appear as righteousness even if this means that he is speaking against someone who also calls himself a Jew.  

I agree that Christian Zionism is a modern heresy because they do not seem to have the same capacity as John to do the same.  John would tell the truth.  He tells us that the Jews lied to Pilate in order to have him kill Christ.  "Pilate said, 'Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.' 'But we have no right to execute anyone,' they objected" (John 18:31).  This is such a blatant lie that it is just isn't even funny.  They had plenty of authority to execute someone for a variety of actual crimes according to the law.  What they didn't have authority to do according to the law was a way to kill Christ, so they needed a way to kill Him without being responsible for it.  If this is what is called anti-semitism within scripture I think people need to really think long and hard about whether they really serve Christ or are in an active pursuit to please the world.  

" No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24).  

What we need to do as the church, whether you are Jew or Gentile, is bring the Gospel to the world, Jew and Gentile; and if they do not receive us, walk away, turn the other cheek, what have you.  There is nothing more that we can do for the one who refuses to accept that Jesus is the SON OF GOD.  

 

[thereselittleflower]

1 minute ago, Esther4:14 said:

My quote feature is struggling to include both Ezra and junobet for my response but that is what I am trying to do.  

First, I would like to share that I disagree with both rapture theory and amillenism.  I was taught Amillenism when I was growing up, but it wasn't the same way the Lutheran are saying.  Amillenism is the 1000 years of the church and at the end of the 1000 years there will be no Christianity anymore, and there will a Messianic age when the real Messiah comes.  The 1000 year term is just figurative and could represent much longer than a thousand years, and I was told that the church was all deceived in thinking that Christ would reign in the Messianic age.  

uumm  That's not Amillennialism.

 

[*Zion*]

On 1/30/2016 at 2:54 PM, junobet said:

 

As far as I know, this is the main verse ‘rapturists’ get their ideas of a rapture from. The video I linked does not go into 1 Thessalonians, so let me try and explain:

Paul and his contemporary Christian congregations believed that Christ would come back in their lifetime. So when the first of them died before Christ had come back, they got worried. These are Paul’s words of comfort to them.

He uses the then familiar image of an entourage going out to meet a King who comes home to his city. The idea would have been that you go out to greet the king and then accompany him back to the city.

So how ‘rapturists’ get it into their head that Christ will come back twice rather than once and that they will be raptured the first time, sit in heaven and comfortably watch on  as everybody else on earth suffers tribulations, is mysterious to me. It’s clearly unbiblical and no Christian before Darby has ever believed in this.

Love,

junobet

It is still the Word of God.  I don't see how we can say it does not apply one way or the other.  He is coming once again, and when He does we will meet Him in the air.  If that is what scripture says, who am I to argue with it?  Let us be very careful not to twist scripture so that it appeals to our logic.  We are supposed to renew our minds in scripture by believing in it in faith.  Faith does not deal with logic, it embraces the revelation of God's Word.  The letter killeth but the Spirit gives life.

God bless you.

[Ezra]

11 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

Jesus said

• My kingdom is NOT of this world.

Pulling a verse out of context does not establish Bible truth.  When Christ said that His Kingdom is not of this world, that was absolutely true and correct in that context. The kingdoms of this world are presently under the control of Satan (Mt 4:8,9). When Christ came as the Lamb of God, He came to take away the sin of the world. However, when He comes as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, He will establish His true Kingdom on this earth and rule with a rod of iron.  Please note that this will be after the battle of Armageddon. Notice what Scripture says in Revelation 11:15:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

We are definitely not in any Millennium right now, since the 7th angel will sound his trumpet during the Great Tribulation.

[junobet]

16 hours ago, *Zion* said:

It is still the Word of God.  I don't see how we can say it does not apply one way or the other.  He is coming once again, and when He does we will meet Him in the air.  If that is what scripture says, who am I to argue with it?  Let us be very careful not to twist scripture so that it appeals to our logic.  We are supposed to renew our minds in scripture by believing in it in faith.  Faith does not deal with logic, it embraces the revelation of God's Word.  The letter killeth but the Spirit gives life.

God bless you.

Remember dear friend: faith goes beyond logic not against it, because both are given by God. And when we study the Bible we should do it both with our brain and our heart.

God bless you, too,

junobet

[junobet]

13 hours ago, Davida said:

If you meant my post Junobet, you might have misunderstood the intent of my words. Being raised an Anglican, sitting in Church I realized the big gap between what was in the Bible and what that denomination was telling me God was saying. When I began reading the Bible apart from Church and praying with real fervency that the Lord God let me know the Truth =to make a long story short- I did leave the Anglican Church realizing that I was never being fed with the whole Word of God nor was I taught by ministers who had a true understanding of the Bible.  I saw these were men who just picked it apart & separated out only parts they focused upon and ignored other parts. Or, they taught that some was not to be believed and was just allegory and they did teach replacement theology which makes NO sense whatsoever and contradicts the Bible. 

I came to two understandings , one that the spiritual battle is real and literal and  I came to the conclusion that if you want to understand the manual God left us , to lead and guide us , the living manual (Bible) that is the whole picture of what God revealed & gave us and that predicted HIS birth & what the Lord Jesus has accomplished at Calvary and what will happen towards the end of this age, His return to rapture the Church, and what HE IS going to do to redeem a remnant of Israel for HIM, when He returns with the saints-- you have to accept the Bible as whole and literal. 

Actually, I did not mean your post. I’m just too stupid to handle the quote-function here.

But I’m sad to hear that your Anglican priests could not explain scripture to you and let you fall prey to what I’d consider false teachers. As I said: the rapture is not Biblical but a 19^th century invention by Darby, that has to be willfully read into the texts, whilst omitting all their context. And I’m pretty sure that all those end-time crazed rapture-ready Christians don’t read the Book of Revelations literally, because otherwise they would not continuously try to interpret political events of their respective days into it. Taking the Bible 100% literally you’d just enjoy Revelation’s literal horror-film-features such as seven headed beasts with ten horns, dragons, locusts with human faces (…) + you’d end up believing that the earth actually stands on pillars and has 4 corners .

So all in all I’m really sorry, but if you read the Bible like you’d read the manual for your TV, you won’t get very far.  It’s just not that kind of book.

Praying for you,

junobet.

 

[junobet]

23 hours ago, Ezra said:

It's not a question of a walk in the park.  It is a question of Christ literally ruling over this earth, and every nation, and thereby establishing universal righteousness, peace, and prosperity under His absolute control.  Your "Millennium" is currently hell on earth for millions, especially those who are being subjected to ISIS.  Sounds more like a Radical Islam Millennium.

Read the Book of Revelation again, Ezra. Nowhere does it tell you that Christ reigns for a thousand years. In fact – just like multiple other texts in the NT – it tells you that Christ will rule forever and ever (Rev. 11:15). Now who is it that reigns for (symbolic) 1000 years? It’s “the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4b) So it’s all those Christian martyrs who had resisted the temptations of the empire. They weren’t raptured, they died and were found saintly enough to go to heaven immediately, before judgement day. And  while their souls reign with Christ for a symbolic thousand years and while the Church fulfills its mission, Christ Himself rules forever.

And yes, during this (symbolic) 1000 year reign we shall experience tribulations, just like the martyrs experienced tribulations. There is no cheap ticket out in a pre-tribulation rapture, Ezra. As Christians we are expected to be willing to suffer gladly for Christ:

^“Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when you are involved in various trials, because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance. But you must let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.” (James 1:2-4)

“Dear friends, do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal that is taking place among you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. Instead, because you are participating in the sufferings of the Messiah,keep on rejoicing, so that you may be glad and shout for joy when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of the Messiah,you are blessed, for the glorious Spirit of God is resting on you.” (1 Peter 4:12-14)

We are to take up our cross and bear it, but we need not fret because his yolk is light.

Love,

junobet

[Ezra]

Just now, junobet said:

Read the Book of Revelation again, Ezra. Nowhere does it tell you that Christ reigns for a thousand years.

So should we treat this passage as fictitious? (Rev 20: 4-6).

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

[junobet]

10 hours ago, Ezra said:

Pulling a verse out of context does not establish Bible truth.  When Christ said that His Kingdom is not of this world, that was absolutely true and correct in that context. The kingdoms of this world are presently under the control of Satan (Mt 4:8,9). When Christ came as the Lamb of God, He came to take away the sin of the world. However, when He comes as the Lion of the tribe of Judah, He will establish His true Kingdom on this earth and rule with a rod of iron.  Please note that this will be after the battle of Armageddon. Notice what Scripture says in Revelation 11:15:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

We are definitely not in any Millennium right now, since the 7th angel will sound his trumpet during the Great Tribulation.

 

As for the kingdoms of this world presently being under control of Satan: You’ve pulled out a verse and missed out on the events coming after Mt 4:

Satan has been bound by Christ’s life, death and resurrection (Mt 12:22-32, in particular verse 29/ Luke 10:18 /John 12:31-32/ Hebrews 2:14-18/1 John 3:7-10).  Now the risen Christ has been given “all authority in heaven and on earth”(Mt 28:18).

So if our earthly kingdoms are evil, it is not Satan who is to blame, but us for not obeying Christ as we should.

 

As for the Lion of Judah:

If I remember right “the Lion of Judah” is mentioned exactly once in the Book of Revelation: in chapter 5, which in my Bible is aptly titled “The Lion is a Lamb”. It is the lamb that is spoken of henceforth.

 

As for Armageddon:

that’s mentioned once in Rev. 16 and I do hope it’s not one of these words where you begin to read Revelations literally again and place it in actual Megiddo : “Har Magedon is the symbol of every battle in which, when the need is greatest and believers are oppressed, the Lord suddenly reveals His power in the interest of His distressed people and defeats the enemy. When Sennacherib's 185,000 are slain by the angel of Jehovah, that is a shadow of the final Har-Magedon. When God grants a little handful of Maccabees a glorious victory over an enemy which far outnumbers it, that is a type of Har-Magedon. But the real, the great, the final Har Magedon coincides with the time of satan’s little season. Then the world, under the leadership of Satan, anti-Christian government, and anti-Christian religion – the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet – is gathered against the Church for the final battle, and the need is greatest; when God's children, oppressed on every side, cry for help; then suddenly, dramatically, Christ will appear on the clouds of glory to deliver his people, that is Har-Magedon. It is for this reason that Har-Magedon is the sixth bowl. The seventh is the judgment-day.”

(William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors, pp. 196–197, quoted from: http://www.biblepreschurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Revelation_Handbook_2012.pdf)

 So no worries, the message is: good will prevail however bleak things may look to us, love,

junobet

P.S.: you may of course claim that Satan has been rereleased already, but again: no worries, we won't need a rapture, we just need to remain steadfast.

Edited February 3, 2016 by junobet