pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Serving]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

But here's the distinction.  When Christ comes for His saints at the Rapture, He comes in person, and takes His saints back to Heaven in person, after they meet Him in the air.

But when Christ gathers "his elect" (Matthew 24) He first comes to earth with His saints and angels (Rev 1:7), and then sends His angels to gather the elect.  Big difference, since these elect ones are the believing Jewish remnant. [BTW "elect" applies to both individual and groups. Context is key]

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mt 24:30,31).

 

Yet ..

Matthew 13:24-30

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

CHRIST EXPLAINS :

Matthew 13:37-43

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

OVERALL CONTEXT :

*Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

*Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Which context perfectly fits :

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mt 24:30,31).

 

[Montana Marv]

7 hours ago, n2thelight said:

All souls return to God

False

The Unjust go to Hades.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

44 minutes ago, inchrist said:

You cannot be raptured before those who have died in Christ who did not worship the beast or his image. You seem to be jumping the gun. The biggest issue and the biggest underling contradiction you face is to prove beyond a doubt that all those saints who have died in Christ in the tribulation are not part of the dead in Christ.

That's a really good point, for those interested in a reasoned discussion.

[n2thelight]

15 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

False

The Unjust go to Hades.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The unjust are on the other side of the gulf,didn't Christ tell you that?No one goes to hell until after judgement which is the lake of fire,the 2nd death,the death of the soul....

[Montana Marv]

9 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

The unjust are on the other side of the gulf,didn't Christ tell you that?No one goes to hell until after judgement which is the lake of fire,the 2nd death,the death of the soul....

Read Luke 16:19-35.  Upon death, Present time conciseness. The rich man was in Hades, the Poor Man was in Paradise or Bosom of Abraham.  Those in Paradise is who Christ took to Heaven at His Ascension.  He brought captives in His train.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[n2thelight]

33 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Read Luke 16:19-35.  Upon death, Present time conciseness. The rich man was in Hades, the Poor Man was in Paradise or Bosom of Abraham.  Those in Paradise is who Christ took to Heaven at His Ascension.  He brought captives in His train.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.' " "Between us that over came, and you that did not overcome, there is a great gulf fixed." That gulf is so fixed that even though one side can see the other side, there is no way to pass between. We can't go your way and you can't come our way. Luke is making the entire clear that you set your course in this life of the flesh, and when your soul passes into the next life, there is no changing what you have done in this life. This gulf or chasm is from the Greek "Chasma"; It means "an impassable interval". The interval is of time and space. This is telling us that if you die hell bound and enter into that other dimension, there is no way that you can reenter back into this dimension again. What ever side of the gulf you are on when you die, that is the side you stay until judgment day.

[Montana Marv]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried (Hades)

carried by angels

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

in the hell (grave) lifted up his eyes means the rich man has now been resurrected, 

Rev 20:5

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

In Christ

Really what you say is not of Scripture.

Jesus Christ was the First to be Resurrected.  So Lazarus had not been Resurrected as you say.  All except Enoch and Elijah were sent into Paradise (Not in Heaven) .

Matt 12:40 - For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Notice it does not say in the crust of the earth.  Jesus says in the HEART of the earth (meaning its center)

Eph 4:8-10 - When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.  What does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower earthly region (depths of the earth).  He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

Those souls did not and could not get to Heaven without Jesus Christ.  He was the first fruit.  Jesus was not just in the Grave, He was in the center/heart of the earth giving instruction to those in Paradise, just a little while longer and you will be with me in Heaven.  The soul is eternal and separate from the body that is in the grave.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

On 5/4/2016 at 10:31 PM, n2thelight said:

All souls return to God

Unqualified statement of yours.  God cannot looked upon Sin.  How can these sinful Souls of individuals return to God then.  They cannot.  They are sent to Hades until they are thrown into the Lake of Fire.  The Souls of the Just could not get to Heaven until Jesus Christ the first fruit got there first.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[John1:18]

Our Lord has himself prayed against the possibly of pre trib rapture 

15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.a John 17:15

Edited May 5, 2016 by John1:18
Spelling

[Montana Marv]

12 minutes ago, John1:18 said:

Our Lord has himself prayed against the possibly of pre trib rapture 

15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.a John 17:15

So all stay, and there is no Rapture.  Your verse supports a No Rapture at All theory then.

In Christ

Montana Marv