Rethinking the Rapture

[Ezra]

 

Sorry I forgot about this thread...

John 3:13 (NASB95)

13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Context is key. No man by himself has ascended into Heaven. But when God takes a man into Heaven, then that is what God does.

[JohnD]

 

Context is key. No man by himself has ascended into Heaven. But when God takes a man into Heaven, then that is what God does.

Context is key.

John 3:13 (AV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

"...no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

The context is post ascension, Gospel account stating that Jesus us in heaven at the time of this writing. Quoting what he said to Nicodemus meaning that until that point in history no man had to date ever ascended up to heaven under any circumstance.

We all have ideas and pet doctrines or beliefs but when the scriptures refute them we either bow or reject the scriptures.

Which is it with you, Ezra?

 

[mevosper]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

The outcome makes all of this categorical and subject to the developments in the end of time:

Revelation 20:11–15 (NASB95)

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

John D - I'm not clear on what you are trying to say.

[enoob57]

It is in the position you say John... however the point is now made mute to the present reality of these verses made so at
the reclamation of saints by Christ dissention and ascension...

Eph 4:7-10

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
KJV
in this is now fulfilled here

2 Co 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV
However we have the issues of Isaiah's translation before God in his witness...
Isaiah 6

We have relativity to exact locations in the infinite of God
many, many, areas we cannot arrive at in our humanness to discern    Love, Steven

[bcbsr]

A significant passage you overlooked is 

1Thess 4:

13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14  We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15  According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
 

[GoldenEagle]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 9:44 PM, JohnD said:

What IS the rapture exactly?

Genesis 5:23–24 (AV)

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Where did he go?

He obviously vanished physically from Earth. But where did he go body, soul, and spirit?

 

There is no other passage in the Bible that is similar to how God took Enoch.

I personally don't believe God will rapture His Church anymore. I tend to lean towards the idea that whatever is coming we who believe (Christians) will suffer along with those who do not. There will be terrible suffering on the earth. Yet Christ will return and make all things new. He will destroy death itself! Praise God!

Romans 5:3-5
More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

James 1:2-4
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Romans 8:18     
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

2 Corinthians 4:8-10
We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

What are your thoughts on our suffering?

God bless,
GE

[JohnD]

Okay.

The point I make is the rapture is not what people think, hope, believe it is.

Matthew 24 speaks of the gathering of his elect from the four winds of the earth. 2 Thessalonians 2 begins on the topic of the gathering that some feared might have already taken place... if that was the second coming / end of the earth how could any sane person believe they missed this? Revelation 3:10 speaks of delivering one kind of the seven kinds of churches from the time of trial / testing that will befall the whole earth. There are other examples, but I believe the point I am making is clear.

The rapture is not to spare Christians tribulation per se. It is to spare Christians from the wrath of God that will be poured out in the very end. It's not about the tribulation but who the wrath is from. And the wrath of God was poured out on Christ for Christians. 

The purpose for the great tribulation... to get the remnant of Israel to cry out to Jesus for salvation. Plain and simple. Everything else will have failed the Jewish people as the world who blames them for everything comes crashing down on them. As a last resort they cry out to Jesus (Yehoshua) Hosha Nah (hosanna) Save Now, Yehoshua! And he will!

Before this, the Jews will be hoodwinked by the false messiah who confirms their covenant for one week of years only to renege on that conformation about half way through... once the Christians appear to be all exterminated. No person in that time will be able to buy or sell without the mark of worship of the beast 666 (the Seal of Solomon or star of David).  Christians will not and will be beheaded etc. for being the plug in what could be a spiritual flow of peace and prosperity the world has never seen before... at least that's how the beast sells the idea. So Christians will be over come and suffer and die and be driven underground for their very survival. 3.5 years in most will be dead. The few who remain alive will be raptured before the wrath of God begins.

 

 

[HAZARD]

John 3: 13, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

 

Greek, anabaino, to go up of one's own power, not taken up as was Enoch (Gen. 5:25; Heb. 11:5), Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), Paul (2 Cor. 12:1-3) and John (Rev. 4:1).

This refers to the ascension of Christ (V. 13; 6:62; Acts 1:11; Luke 24:51; Eph. 4:8-10). Christ ascended and came back before His final ascension to heaven to stay John 20:17).

 

[Robert Lindstrom]

On 3/22/2016 at 9:48 PM, JohnD said:

Elijah however did not ascend up into the third Heaven. He only ascended up into the first heaven. Even the children of the prophets assumed that and tried to look for him.

According to Heb 11:13 , Enoch and everyone that died in faith having not received the promises, had somehow died.They somehow ended up in paradise.
All of them went to paradise until JESUS had finished the Work on the cross and had preached to the spirits in prison.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

So Elijah lived until, I think 20 years later, not sure on the exact time here. He did write a letter that is mentioned which is I guess 10 or 20 years later according to "2Ch 21:12".

2Ch 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Robert Lindstrom

[missmuffet]

On 3/22/2016 at 7:44 PM, JohnD said:

What IS the rapture exactly?

Genesis 5:23–24 (AV)

23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Where did he go?

He obviously vanished physically from Earth. But where did he go body, soul, and spirit?

 

Question: "What is the rapture of the church?"

Answer: The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.

The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

The rapture will involve an instantaneous transformation of our bodies to fit us for eternity. “We know that when he [Christ] appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

The rapture of the church is a glorious event we should all be longing for. We will finally be free from sin. We will be in God’s presence forever. There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage each other with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).

http://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html