3 1/2 or 7 Year Tribulation?

[Guest hubertdorm]

I'm not with you Dad Ernie, that that Messiah is the one who confirmed the covenant of Daniel 9.

Chronologically, the covenant is not confirmed until after the sanctuary is destroyed. How is it possible then, that Jesus the Messiah is the one who confirmed the covenant?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Hubert Dorm,

You must have missed the several posts in which I quoted the following verses:

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the NEW COVENANT in my blood, which is shed for you.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the NEW COVENANT; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the NEW COVENANT, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Matthew 23:37-39 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The purpose of the Daniel 9 Covenant was to "restore Israel to righteousness with God". But they killed their Messiah mid-week of the 70th week, thereby leaving 3 1/2 years remaining of the Daniel 9 Covenant for the Jews. Romans 9-11 tells us that when the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in (to the Kingdom of God)" then the fulness of Israel shall come immediately afterwards.

As you can see by the Hebrew vs. above, the Daniel Covenant is incorporated into the New Covenant as far as the Jews are concerned.

Jesus commissioned the Apostles to "go ye unto all the world" long before 70 A.D. thus the Kingdom of God was taken from Israel long before 70 A.D.

Now, I do believe I have posted the many OT verses regarding WHEN the Jews are saved - in times of trouble in the latter days when they remain scattered among the nations.

So what do we find with Revelation? 3 1/2 years mentioned several times that ALL run concurrently and NOT consequitively, as the pre-trib doctrine must insist.

So there is nothing "out of order" time-wise or otherwise.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I'm following you. I'm trying to determing whether the covenant of the 70th week is the covenant of Jesus, or a different one.

The reason I brought up chronology is because the text of Daniel 9 puts the confirmation after the destruction of the sanctuary (by the people of the prince to come), not before.

That is, Jesus' ministry and sacrifice occured circa 33AD, and the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

You see my confusion? The New Covenant was given before the destruction of the Holy Place, but the confirmation of a covenant of Daniel 9 seems to be after the destruction.

[Guest hubertdorm]

By the way, I ended the other post prematurely because of a translation variation.

Daniel 9:26-27 The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. (NIV)

In the NIV, the man who confirms the covenant also ends sacrifice. This same man sets up the abomination that causes desolation on the temple wing.

This is why people interpret this to be a prophecy of the antichrist. But look at another translation with me:

Daniel 9:27

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

But in the middle of the week

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

Even until the consummation, which is determined,

Is poured out on the desolate. (NKJV)

Do you see a difference? The abomination of desolation is not necessarily set up by the same "he" who confirms the covenant. It only says, "shall be one who makes desolate," which certainly allows for a 2nd person.

To further emphasize this point, I want to use another translation

Daniel 9:27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate. (NASB)

The NASB even more clearly pictures the one who makes desolate (the AoD) as one to come, not the same one as confirmed the covenant.

[Dad Ernie]

The NASB even more clearly pictures the one who makes desolate (the AoD) as one to come, not the same one as confirmed the covenant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Hubert Dorm,

All I can ask is where in the NT does the AoD or whoever is revealed to be the one to cause the desolation of the temple and Jerusalem until the consummation of the Daniel covenant. Also, where does it show anyone make a "covenant" with "many". I find only:

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament (COVENANT) in my blood, which is shed for you.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament (COVENANT); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament (COVENANT), that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I am convinced that the NT is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and that ALL the OT points to and is revealed more fully in the NT.

Now, the AoD in the NT, stands in the Holy Place. When you study the word Temple, you will find that the Physical Temple is the Gr. "Hieron". This is never revealed to be rebuilt but will remain destroyed, even according to Daniel, until the Consummation of the Daniel 9 Covenant. The "Temple", that is being constructed in the NT by Jesus is a "Spiritual Temple", and the Greek word for it is "Naos". The Naos is the Person of Christ, the Church, the individual believers, and the Temple which is in heaven in Revelation. The temple in Heaven is the Holy of Holies, whereas the temple on earth is referred to as the Holy Place or the "altar" that is before the Holy Place in Heaven. The Holy Place - ON EARTH, is what the AoD will "desolate", particularly in the last days, when the church becomes completely apostate.

So, as you can see, you need all the pieces of the puzzle, before it falls into place. Hope that helps.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[rollinTHUNDER]

Now, the AoD in the NT, stands in the Holy Place. When you study the word Temple, you will find that the Physical Temple is the Gr. "Hieron". This is never revealed to be rebuilt but will remain destroyed, even according to Daniel, until the Consummation of the Daniel 9 Covenant. The "Temple", that is being constructed in the NT by Jesus is a "Spiritual Temple", and the Greek word for it is "Naos". The Naos is the Person of Christ, the Church, the individual believers, and the Temple which is in heaven in Revelation. The temple in Heaven is the Holy of Holies, whereas the temple on earth is referred to as the Holy Place or the "altar" that is before the Holy Place in Heaven. The Holy Place - ON EARTH, is what the AoD will "desolate", particularly in the last days, when the church becomes completely apostate.

So, as you can see, you need all the pieces of the puzzle, before it falls into place. Hope that helps.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello DE,

If you want to put the puzzle together, all of the pieces must fit. You are forcing pieces to fit what you believe, so the puzzle isn't going to fall into place. You keep trying to force a the Spiritual temple, but the 70 weeks are determined for Daniel's people (the Jews), and his Holy City (Jerusalem), Dan.9:24. Daniel made supplication for his people, not Christians. In fact, he had no concept whatsoever of the church, or even that Messiah would be crucified or killed. He was only told that Messiah would be cut off, but not for Himself. This information didn't seem to bother Daniel in the least. Scripture is very, very clear too, that the covenant is for one week. That doesn't fit your theory either, even though it's just as plain as day.

Then to muddle this up even more, you also believe that the prince to come is Satan, which is wrong again. Jesus said that Israel would reject Him, and receive one who would come in his own name, so where does this fall into your theory?

[Trinity]

What is Jesus telling us when He says,

[rollinTHUNDER]

Nice post Trinity!

Daniel chapter 9 gives us the time frame, but Daniel 11:31 gives us the very act that Jesus tells those who are living in Judea at that time, to watch out for in Matthew 24:15-22. The prince to come is Daniel's little horn, the man of sin and/or the son of perdition.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I believe much confusion is caused by not knowing exactly when Messiah came to Israel. To believe in the 3 1/2 year tribulation theory, you would have to assume that it was either when Christ was baptized in the River Jordan, or like DE believes, when He performed His first miracle in Cana.

It was prophesied when Messiah would come exactly, and scripture leaves no doubt when this happened.

Matthew 21:1-14 - "And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,

(2)Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

(3)And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

(4)All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

(5)Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

(6)And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

(7)And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

(8)And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.

(9)And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

(10)And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

(11)And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

(12)And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

(13)And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

This was the day the Great King came unto His own, and soon after is when He would be cut off and rejected. But that's not the end of the story. Messiah will come again, and to the same exact place where He made His first grand entrance, also known as the Triumphal Entry, Jerusalem:

Matthew 23:37-39 - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(38)Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

(39)For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

He will not come again until they say, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord," just like the believers did the first time. But that's not all, look what the believers will do again also, in heaven:

Revelation 7:9-10 - "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (10)And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

When Messiah comes again, it will be the same exact place, Jerusalem. They will say the same exact thing, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." And before He comes again, the believers will have palm branches in their hands, just like they did before. Bulls-Eye!

If this is not a dead ringer, I don't know what is.

Yes, He performed signs and miracles, healed the sick and raised the dead. These were signs to show who He was. But He was not ready to be hailed as King until the appointed time, which is also why He told some not tell of the miracles He had done, because it was still too soon.

Roll out the red carpet, the King is coming again!

[Old Timer]

RollinTHUNDER, No, No, NO

[Trinity]

Yes, He performed signs and miracles, healed the sick and raised the dead. These were signs to show who He was. But He was not ready to be hailed as King until the appointed time, which is also why He told some not tell of the miracles He had done, because it was still too soon.

That is correct Rollin

Matthew 12

15 "Don't be afraid, people of Israel. Look, your King is coming,

sitting on a donkey's colt."

16His disciples didn't realize at the time that this was a fulfillment of prophecy. But after Jesus entered into his glory, they remembered that these Scriptures had come true before their eyes.

[Keith]

RollinTHUNDER, No, No, NO