Contemporary Daniel 7 interpretation

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Kan said:

I did not say the last beast is history, but added "and we have one to end." There is one more which will last until the Kingdom of God.

Rome already trampled all over the other kingdoms in ancient times, that is history, and old Rome has fallen, but the worst part of it - the blasphemous little horn is still alive and well. Daniel says that the little horn carries on right until the end. If you are waiting for a great kingdom to wipe out all other kingdoms, you'll be waiting for a long time, because it won't happen. To begin with, the toes are all different kingdoms reigning until the Kingdom of God. Also John saw three beasts all living in modern times. There won't be a single kingdom, but the world will be united, and this unity is represented by the red beast which carries a wicked woman or church.

We are living in those days, when the whole world wonders after the beast that had the deadly wound and was healed. The Papacy fell from direct political rule at the end of its 1260 year reign as predicted by Daniel and John, and has healed from that, and now it rules over all the governments/kings of the world. For new Bible readers, see Revelation chapters 17 and 18, how it all ends.

It is this little horn power which is behind the persecuting of the saints and has planned to wipe them out soon, through the implementation of its mark- "the mark of the beast." It will do that by gaining the full support of the world to its demands.

You have presented the concept that the fourth beast destroys the other three, in the last days, and then it is destroyed, and then the other three keep going. That does not sound much like the destruction described by Daniel, if the three previous kingdoms are able to survive that.

The book of Daniel is dealing with the dominion of certain kingdoms, not so much their physical destruction.

Rome went after rule, and although she was prepared to crush, burn and bury, she preferred an immediate defeat and surrender, in order to retain the goods and ground. The first three Kingdoms had world dominion, and the fourth had the same. But the fourth has an unusual and different dominion, or in another manner, through the little horn on its head, which lasts until the end of time.

If the fourth kingdom is Rome, then how does Rome crush Persia, Babylon and Greece in the last days, when there is nothing left of Rome except the little horn?

Either way, you can't dismiss the reign of the Papacy as the Antichrist for the period of 1260 years from 538 AD to 1798 AD, which is the driving motive behind all these theories of futurism and so forth.

Unless there is a clear understanding of the past the future will not be revealed.

Hi Ken, although I don't subscribe to the papacy/pope historist or reformation view, I thought your post was well presented expressing your view.

There is the push by the Vatican to reunite Christianity under the Pope's rule in support of your position.   I am thinking about the Kenneth Copeland move in particular.

What is foundational to your position is that the ten kings are ten kingdoms that historically were active at the time of ancient Roman Empire decay.    What I think is going to win you (and Marilyn) over to my view is when the EU transforms into a stronger federalized government of ten leaders with one leader over them.   I don't think it is far away.

In the meantime, take a look at Mark 15:32.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

As the Pope being the Antichrist, do you really think the Pope, totally Christian in their eyes,  is going to be embraced by the Jews as their King of Israel, Son of David, and anointed as such?

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by douggg

[Kan]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Hi Kan, although I don't subscribe to the papacy/pope historist or reformation view, I thought your post was well presented expressing your view.

There is the push by the Vatican to reunite Christianity under the Pope's rule in support of your position.   I am thinking about the Kenneth Copeland move in particular.

What is foundational to your position is that the ten kings are ten kingdoms that historically were active at the time of ancient Roman Empire decay.    What I think is going to win you (and Marilyn) over to my view is when the EU transforms into a stronger federalized government of ten leaders with one leader over them.   I don't think it is far away.

In the meantime, take a look at Mark 15:32.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

As the Pope being the Antichrist, do you really think the Pope, totally Christian in their eyes,  is going to be embraced by the Jews as their King of Israel, Son of David, and anointed as such?

We need to understand the reign of the Papacy as the Antichrist in the past, otherwise we really have no direction in any predictions of the future, because the future is a repetition of the past, you even suggest the reinstatement of ten representatives of the EU, and without any evidence of another ten rulerships, this seems like a valid expectation...which I lean towards, until we have further knowledge.

As far as the Pope is concerned, we know he is the chosen representative of the church, and what he shows publicly may not necessarily be what happens behind closed doors. Whatever the case, I don't think the Pope is "the Antichrist"- but the devil is, and anyone who follows the devil through sin, is of the Antichrist.

The system of the Papacy which works in secret is more or less doing the will of Satan, but the open Catholic church and its millions are not "the Antichrist." In fact they are called God's people as far as Revelation goes. The current Pope may be one of these saints, or he may become one, but as a human being, he is not the Antichrist. And what is more, the Antichrist revealed is not some strange animal with horns that sits in a Jewish temple. The Antichrist is revealed when Satan impersonates Jesus Christ, who teaches men to obey commandments which contradict the original and only law of God. 

The devil has been teaching the world through its trusted religions for the past 300 years, and especially since the mid 1800's, that the law of God has been made redundant, and is nothing better than an icon of ignorance in the past. In this way he has already prepared the world to receive his new order of law and doctrine in the name of Christ.

The world will follow his ways because they have resisted the truth about themselves in regards to cherished idols of sin. And rather than face the death of their sins, they have chosen an invented gospel, which allows them to believe that they will be saved while practicing known sin. This is the danger of the work of Satan, it is religious in nature and subtle, and not a building busting monster with red eyes, as many futurists would have us believe.

Daniel 7:25 says that the work of this dark power is to try and "change times and laws." The old Papacy changed the time of the Sabbath, from Saturday to Sunday, and it removed the second law of God, because it condemns idolatry. The work of Satan in the future is the same as in the past, so we may expect that he will cause the world to disregard the law of God, knowing that breaking the law of God on only one point is enough to remove the protection of God from the plagues, as described in Revelation 16. The churches are filled with ministers who do not tell the people the truth, and are leaving their flocks unshielded. In fairness and compassion, before the end, people will be given a clear warning of what the mark of the beast is, so that their decision may be an informed one. That message is symbolized as three angels flying in the midst of heaven, in Revelation 14:6-12. 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Kan said:

. Whatever the case, I don't think the Pope is "the Antichrist"- but the devil is, and anyone who follows the devil through sin, is of the Antichrist.

In that case, do you really think that the Jews, who are waiting and expecting the messiah the promised great king of Israel to show and be anointed as their King, Son of David to be Satan?

Edited May 15, 2016 by douggg

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, Kan said:

 

If the fourth kingdom is Rome, then how does Rome crush Persia, Babylon and Greece in the last days, when there is nothing left of Rome except the little horn?

Either way, you can't dismiss the reign of the Papacy as the Antichrist for the period of 1260 years from 538 AD to 1798 AD, which is the driving motive behind all these theories of futurism and so forth.

Unless there is a clear understanding of the past the future will not be revealed.

Hi Kan,

Precisely. How can Rome crush those other beasts, because it is NOT Rome which is the 4th beast.

The anti-Christ is a Political ruler & not a religious one.

Yes an understanding of history is important, especially who God brings to focus - the ancient world rulers & the contemporary great powers that have been ruling since early & middle last century. To disregard those is to be blinded to God`s work, I believe, in the nations, in our time.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, douggg said:

Hi Marilyn, the other three kingdoms in existence again is going to be pretty hard to do since their territories layered one over the other,  because they conquered one another.     That's why I think it is the people living at the time of the Lord's return occupying the territories once held collectively by those kingdoms - which over time have developed into the modern nations.   Jesus is going to rule the world with a rod of iron - so that dictators like Saddam Hussein are not going to rise up and abuse the people.... the nations won't have sovereign dominion.

 

 

 

Hi douggg,

Yes conquering the past empire. And as God said that these 4 beast `shall arise` (Dan. 7: 17) we realise that they are future to Daniel, for Babylon was well into its rule.

 

13 hours ago, douggg said:

Well, I think I am talking about four kingdoms (empires), with the fourth having an end times version - which there are no end times versions of the other three.

Yes, I have scriptures.   It is four beasts in Daniel 7.    But four metals (gold, silver, brass, iron) in Daniel 2.

The fourth metal iron represents the ancient Roman Empire.  

 

 

 

You say - The fourth metal iron represents the ancient Roman Empire. God says - `as strong as iron.` (Dan. 2: 40) Thus we realise that the word `iron` is describing the kingdom, but it does NOT represent the kingdom. This has been the main error where people have assumed (I believe) that iron equals Rome. However there is not scripture to support this. And actually God tells us in His word that it is the Assyrian who is the anti-Christ, (Isa. 31: 8). He is the king of the north,  - ancient Assyria, (Dan. 11: 40)

 

Marilyn. 

 

 

[douggg]

11 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

Yes conquering the past empire. And as God said that these 4 beast `shall arise` (Dan. 7: 17) we realise that they are future to Daniel, for Babylon was well into its rule.

 

You say - The fourth metal iron represents the ancient Roman Empire. God says - `as strong as iron.` (Dan. 2: 40) Thus we realise that the word `iron` is describing the kingdom, but it does NOT represent the kingdom. This has been the main error where people have assumed (I believe) that iron equals Rome. However there is not scripture to support this. And actually God tells us in His word that it is the Assyrian who is the anti-Christ, (Isa. 31: 8). He is the king of the north,  - ancient Assyria, (Dan. 11: 40)

 

Marilyn. 

 

 

I should have been more precise that the legs of iron represents the ancient Roman Empire.   And the feet of iron and clay represents the end times version of the Roman Empire.

Why doesn't scripture support the legs of iron being the Roman Empire as the Caesars were referred to the Gospels?   And all of the history books?

Isaiah 31:8 Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.

I am curious, Marilyn, how are getting the Antichrist will be an Assyrian from that verse?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

I should have been more precise that the legs of iron represents the ancient Roman Empire.   And the feet of iron and clay represents the end times version of the Roman Empire.

Why doesn't scripture support the legs of iron being the Roman Empire as the Caesars were referred to the Gospels?   And all of the history books?

Isaiah 31:8 Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.

I am curious, Marilyn, how are getting the Antichrist will be an Assyrian from that verse?

Hi douggg,

Where is your proof, other scriptures to show that the `feet & toes,` is the end times version of the Roman Empire? Scripture does support the legs being the Roman Empire but not the `feet & toes,` for that is an assumption, I believe.

Now here is how I see that the Assyrian is the one whom the Lord will deal with when He comes in power & great glory to deliver Israel & deal with the anti-Christ & his armies.

`For thus the Lord has spoken to me: "As a lion roars, & a young lion over his prey ....so the Lord of hosts will come down to fight for Mount Zion & for its hill. Like flying birds about, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending, he will also deliver it; passing over, he will preserve it." ......."Then the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of man...` (Isa. 31: 4 - 8)

Marilyn.

 

 

[douggg]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

Where is your proof, other scriptures to show that the `feet & toes,` is the end times version of the Roman Empire? Scripture does support the legs being the Roman Empire but not the `feet & toes,` for that is an assumption, I believe.

Now here is how I see that the Assyrian is the one whom the Lord will deal with when He comes in power & great glory to deliver Israel & deal with the anti-Christ & his armies.

`For thus the Lord has spoken to me: "As a lion roars, & a young lion over his prey ....so the Lord of hosts will come down to fight for Mount Zion & for its hill. Like flying birds about, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending, he will also deliver it; passing over, he will preserve it." ......."Then the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of man...` (Isa. 31: 4 - 8)

Marilyn.

 

 

But how is the Assyrian to fall by the sword - equate to the person who becomes the Antichrist being cast alive into the lake of fire?

The feet and toes have the same metal of iron describing the Ancient Roman Empire extended into them - except there is the element of clay to denote some parts of the end times Roman Empire are weak.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

But how is the Assyrian to fall by the sword - equate to the person who becomes the Antichrist being cast alive into the lake of fire?

 

Hi douggg,

Good question there -How is the Assyrian to fall by the sword (not of man) - equate to the person who becomes the anti-Christ being cast alive into the lake of fire?

So let`s look at God`s word.

`For thus the Lord has spoken to me: "As a lion roars, & a young lion over his prey ....so the Lord of hosts will come down to fight for Mount Zion & for its hill. Like flying birds about, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending, he will also deliver it; passing over, he will preserve it." ......."Then the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of man...` (Isa. 31: 4 - 8)

So we see that this event is when the Lord comes to Mount Zion. We are told more detail in Zechariah & Revelation.

`And I saw heaven opened, & behold, a white horse. And he who sat on him was called Faithful & True, & in righteousness He judges & makes war......Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. (Rev. 19: 11 & 15)

`And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, & their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.` (Zech. 14: 12) 

`Then the beast was captured, & with him the false prophet....These two were cast alive into the lake burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.` (Rev. 19: 20 & 21)

These scripture tell me that the anti-Christ `shall fall by a sword not of man,` -  by the sword proceeding out of the Lord`s mouth. This we know is the word of God & is more powerful than any atomic force. Their flesh will dissolve, but before they die they will be cast alive into the burning fire. They go straight to the Lake of fire while others will just die & later stand before God`s judgment.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Marilyn C

[douggg]

36 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

Good question there -How is the Assyrian to fall by the sword (not of man) - equate to the person who becomes the anti-Christ being cast alive into the lake of fire?

So let`s look at God`s word.

`For thus the Lord has spoken to me: "As a lion roars, & a young lion over his prey ....so the Lord of hosts will come down to fight for Mount Zion & for its hill. Like flying birds about, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending, he will also deliver it; passing over, he will preserve it." ......."Then the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of man...` (Isa. 31: 4 - 8)

So we see that this event is when the Lord comes to Mount Zion. We are told more detail in Zechariah & Revelation.

`And I saw heaven opened, & behold, a white horse. And he who sat on him was called Faithful & True, & in righteousness He judges & makes war......Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. (Rev. 19: 11 & 15)

`And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, & their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.` (Zech. 14: 12) 

`Then the beast was captured, & with him the false prophet....These two were cast alive into the lake burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.` (Rev. 19: 20 & 21)

These scripture tell me that the anti-Christ `shall fall by a sword not of man,` -  by the sword proceeding out of the Lord`s mouth. This we know is the word of God & is more powerful than any atomic force. Their flesh will dissolve, but before they die they will be cast alive into the burning fire. They go straight to the Lake of fire while others will just die & later stand before God`s judgment.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Marilyn, I could understand your explanation if it was applied to the armies gathered to fight against Jesus.     But I don't see it regarding the beast.

btw, how is an Assyrian going to become the Antichrist - the king of Israel, son of David (instead of the rightful king - Jesus) ?

Mark15:32  Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.