Contemporary Daniel 7 interpretation

[Kan]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

In that case, do you really think that the Jews, who are waiting and expecting the messiah the promised great king of Israel to show and be anointed as their King, Son of David to be Satan?

I don't know, but the only Messiah for the Jews has already been.

[Kan]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Kan,

Precisely. How can Rome crush those other beasts, because it is NOT Rome which is the 4th beast.

The anti-Christ is a Political ruler & not a religious one.

Yes an understanding of history is important, especially who God brings to focus - the ancient world rulers & the contemporary great powers that have been ruling since early & middle last century. To disregard those is to be blinded to God`s work, I believe, in the nations, in our time.

Marilyn.

The prophecies indicate that the third kingdom, Greece, was beaten by a stronger and more brutal kingdom, which was ? Not Rome? 

The first, second and third beasts have lost their dominion, there is nothing left to crush or oppose is there? Is the new AC power going to break down the Greek cafes?

Is it political or religious?

All the kingdoms of the world are political, and all of them have been targets of false religion which Satan has been trying to establish through them. Satan is not so interested in political power as he is in gaining worship. Note what Daniel and his companions had to put up with, religious persecution. That is the only reason Satan builds up large mountains of people/kingdoms. He is not interested in making civilizations, he wants to kill the saints, and controlling large centralized populations is one way to do it. So all kingdoms are intentionally religious, Anti-god, Pagan, false Christs. So the most successful kingdom of Satan is the most religious - the Roman Catholic empire, the little horn on the fourth beast, and it was politically backed by the kings of Europe.

Blasphemy is a religious term. The whole theme of the Antichrist is blasphemy, the little horn speaks blasphemy, and the beast of Rev 13 is blasphemous and the last red beast has blasphemies written all over its body. The last attempt of Satan to gain worship through religion, will be backed by political powers, and unlike any time in history, this last beast will be backed by the people of the world. Very similar to revolutionary France, except it won't be anti-God, but God worshiping, they will worship and obey the false Christ which is Satan, as we have been warned about. (The Bible ties the beast out of the bottomless pit - that ended the Papal reign in 1798 AD, to the last red beast, they have the same origin, See Rev 11 and 17. Whereas the other beasts came out of the sea or the earth.)

Political power is something any draconian system needs in order to enforce its ideals, so of course the AC is political, but with religious intent, as all of the prophecies show.

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Kan said:

I don't know, but the only Messiah for the Jews has already been.

Kan, I think you are right if you repackaged your thinking a little bit to Satan being the power behind the person who becomes the Antichrist and then later the beast in Revelation.

I don't know if you are aware but in the Kaballah, Jewish mysticism, might as well say occult, practice there is some thinking that the master of it can control angels to have those angels carry out the Kaballahist's agenda.

So what I think is that over in Daniel 8, where it is talking about the little horn person, it says he is successful not by his own power, and that causes craft to prosper.... is because as Jew, he is into practicing Kaballah deeply - and that Satan is actually helping him.       At some point, his mind gets twisted around because he has exposed himself to Satan, who convinces him in his heart that he has achieved God-hood.     The same old lie that Satan used in the garden of Eden.   

Here are the verses in Daniel 8:
 

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24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

Once that person is convinced in his heart he has achieved God-hood, he does the transgression of desolation act of stopping the daily sacrifice, goes into the temple, sits, and claims to be God.... which is the 2thessalonians2:4 verse.

Then we can read in Ezekiel 28:1-10, Gods reaction to his act of 'sitting in the seat of God" after he has magnified himself in his heart to think such a thing....

The "prince of tyrus" is just a code name for the person,
 

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2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

 

So God has the person killed.    And in Isaiah 14, the person finds himself in hell, mocked, until God in disdain for him brings him back to life - because he destroys his people and his land - he is a Jew, at that time the former king of Israel, formerly the Antichrist.     Once back to life, the person continues, but in the role of the beast in Revelation 13 for that last 42 months before Jesus returns.    
 

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19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, douggg said:

Marilyn, I could understand your explanation if it was applied to the armies gathered to fight against Jesus.     But I don't see it regarding the beast.

btw, how is an Assyrian going to become the Antichrist - the king of Israel, son of David (instead of the rightful king - Jesus) ?

Mark15:32  Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

   

 

Hi douggg,

Where does it say in the Bible that the anti-Christ has to be a Jew?

Thank you, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Kan said:

The prophecies indicate that the third kingdom, Greece, was beaten by a stronger and more brutal kingdom, which was ? Not Rome? 

The first, second and third beasts have lost their dominion, there is nothing left to crush or oppose is there? Is the new AC power going to break down the Greek cafes?

Is it political or religious?

All the kingdoms of the world are political, and all of them have been targets of false religion which Satan has been trying to establish through them. Satan is not so interested in political power as he is in gaining worship. Note what Daniel and his companions had to put up with, religious persecution. That is the only reason Satan builds up large mountains of people/kingdoms. He is not interested in making civilizations, he wants to kill the saints, and controlling large centralized populations is one way to do it. So all kingdoms are intentionally religious, Anti-god, Pagan, false Christs. So the most successful kingdom of Satan is the most religious - the Roman Catholic empire, the little horn on the fourth beast, and it was politically backed by the kings of Europe.

Blasphemy is a religious term. The whole theme of the Antichrist is blasphemy, the little horn speaks blasphemy, and the beast of Rev 13 is blasphemous and the last red beast has blasphemies written all over its body. The last attempt of Satan to gain worship through religion, will be backed by political powers, and unlike any time in history, this last beast will be backed by the people of the world. Very similar to revolutionary France, except it won't be anti-God, but God worshiping, they will worship and obey the false Christ which is Satan, as we have been warned about. (The Bible ties the beast out of the bottomless pit - that ended the Papal reign in 1798 AD, to the last red beast, they have the same origin, See Rev 11 and 17. Whereas the other beasts came out of the sea or the earth.)

Political power is something any draconian system needs in order to enforce its ideals, so of course the AC is political, but with religious intent, as all of the prophecies show.

Hi Kan,

Yes Rome took over from Greece, but that is not what we are seeing here in Daniel 7 & the 4 beasts, I believe. You have yet to have scriptures to show that those 4 beasts are the historic Babylon, Medes & Persians, etc. It has only been assumed by people before but I believe it is not so.

And yes I agree that the Political System of man needs the religious aspect to enforce its ideals, as you said.

 

Marilyn. 

 

[douggg]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

Where does it say in the Bible that the anti-Christ has to be a Jew?

Thank you, Marilyn.

 

Messiah = Christ = King of Israel.

Messiah = Christ from John 4:
 

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25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

 

Christ = KIng of Israel from Mark 15:

 

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32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

 

Now to 1John2:18, antichrist singular shall come, they were already aware.

 

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18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John was "likening" some to the coming antichrist by calling them antichrists.    Why?  

Quote

 

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

 

Now where was John getting that notion?    We go to all places the gospel of John.    John 5.

 

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23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Now here in the same chapter, which John in 1John2:22-23, gave the characteristics of antichrist from, we find out how they were already aware that antichrist singular shall come.

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43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

So everything said about the coming antichrist, and that to deny Father and Son, is antichrist - is coming from John Chapter 5.

I gave the verses above at the start of this post of how Messiah = Christ = King of Israel.      Of course those persons John likened to the singular coming antichrist, by calling them as antichrists as well because they denieth Father and Son - were most likely not Jews.     But the antichrist the Jews will receive - the another in John 5:43 as their King Messiah, King of Israel, he has to be a Jew, because that is what is in the old testament, which the person must be descended from King David,  as a Jew.... which Jesus was, but the Jews rejected him as being their King Messiah, King of Israel... and will embrace another, the forthcoming Antichrist.

(Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:9, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:23, 37:24 ; Hosea 3:5)

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by douggg
to correct some spelling

[Marilyn C]

Hi dougg,

I see that there is quite a bit to work through. As this seems to be a good topic on its own, I will start a new thread. You may wish to copy your notes there, bro.

 

Marilyn.

[Kan]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Kan,

Yes Rome took over from Greece, but that is not what we are seeing here in Daniel 7 & the 4 beasts, I believe. You have yet to have scriptures to show that those 4 beasts are the historic Babylon, Medes & Persians, etc. It has only been assumed by people before but I believe it is not so.

And yes I agree that the Political System of man needs the religious aspect to enforce its ideals, as you said.

 

Marilyn. 

 

More like the other way around, the religious system needs the political to have any power, because most religions are just stupidity. They go hand in hand actually, the Devil was the first politician and the inventor of religion. Before that, heaven was just a big family.

As for the fulfillment of Daniel 7, if it is yet future, what is the event described in verses 10 and 13, and when does that take place?

"The judgement was set and the books were opened" "the Son of man came to the Ancient of days, and they bought Him near before Him."

This judgement has to do with the cleansing of the sanctuary,which was typified in the old sanctuary as the Day of Atonement, which was predicted to begin in 1844 AD or the end of the 2300 years. It can't be future because Jesus began that ministry right after He ascended.

Daniel 7 covers the time of Daniel through to the end of time, because all of the visions and illustrations in Daniel, begin in ancient times and reach until the end of time, and they have many correlations.

Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12:5 onward are 6 layers of information on the same foundation as Daniel 2.

They cover a period of time especially from the time of Christ until the end, about 2000 years, and within that period is the great tribulation of 1260 years by the Papacy. This is reaffirmed in Revelation with at least another 6 layers covering the same period.

12 prophetic illustrations and instructions of the angel, show that the kingdoms are successive and that they are world empires and that the prophecy of Daniel 8 talking about the sanctuary, has to do with the heavenly sanctuary, which ministry opened when Christ ascended nearly 2000 years ago, and which will close very soon before the return of Christ.

The prophecy spans 2300 years, and within that time are another 8 time spans which tie in both ends of the 2300 years.

What is more, Revelation uses the 1260 years of Papal reign over 5 times, plus it has another 2 great time spans which cover the reign of the Mohammedans, and the Ottoman empire to the exact day. These events run along side the 2300 years, and the 1260 years. 

There are 15 specific time spans in Daniel and Revelation, mentioned over 24 times, and they all happen within the time from Daniel until the end of the millennium. It is not possible to move any of the beasts around under these guide posts.

What is more, the symbolism and language of both books confirm that all of the above is one panoramic view, and that it is not split up and divided into past and future, with a giant gap that misses the reign of the Antichrist -the Papacy for 1260 years, as the proponents of the Church of Rome have been teaching through the ecumenical congregations and publications for over a century.

And no wonder, the prophecies expose the beast which tortured and oppressed the world, killing well over 60 million in the name of its religion. But while it remains unidentified from the past, there is no true knowledge of the present and future, and no hope of enduring the last deceptions that Christendom has already fallen into.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Kan,

Not sure what you meant by `heaven was just a big family,` but scripture tells us that there was a hierarchy in heaven. There were positions of power & authority given, thrones & dominions exercised.

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven, & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him & for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

And the Lord made all these before Lucifer fell. Those positions were created & Christ Himself will occupy each one with those He has prepared with Him.    

Will answer the rest of your comments, soon bro,

Marilyn.   

[Kan]

On 5/17/2016 at 7:59 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Kan,

Not sure what you meant by `heaven was just a big family,` but scripture tells us that there was a hierarchy in heaven. There were positions of power & authority given, thrones & dominions exercised.

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven, & that are on earth, visible & invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him & for Him.` (Col. 1: 16)

And the Lord made all these before Lucifer fell. Those positions were created & Christ Himself will occupy each one with those He has prepared with Him.    

Will answer the rest of your comments, soon bro,

Marilyn.   

The hierarchy in heaven is generally expected to reflect earthly authority, but it is nothing like it. There is no strife and bullying in heaven by any authority. The highest positions in heaven are that of a good servant, to give support, and happy just to be there.

The influence of God in heaven is like that of a contented Father.

"The Lord thy God...He will rejoice over you with joy; He will rest in His love, He will joy over you with singing." Zeph 3:17.

Doesn't say much does He? No pointing fingers, no boards of review. Just family life. 

Here is a perfect demonstration of the hierarchy in heaven and how it operates.

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by OneLight
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