Paul Says 3 Groups Should Be Silent in the Church ....

[Jayne]

The purpose of this post is only to expound on the words of Paul and not anything else.  I personally believe that a pastor of a church should be a man - not because a woman can't do the job or isn't spiritual enough or smart enough - but because God said not to do it that way and so we shouldn't.

I only desire in this post that people look at what Paul was saying about keeping silent and whom he was speaking to and why.

Wives asking questions aloud aren’t the only ones to keep silent in the church according to Paul and 1 Corinthians 14. 

As a background, the church at Corinth was a hot mess. Paul spends the first 10 chapters giving them a smack upside the head for their issues with:

• “Preacher worship” and divisiveness
• Sexual immorality committed and tolerated
• Immaturity
• Loss of rewards
• Judging each other
• Lack of discipline
• Lack of purity

Paul does stop midstream and give them some solutions.   And then Paul answers some of their questions about marriage, divorce, being celibate, and eating meat sacrificed to pagan idols.   That’s all the first 10 chapters.

Next, in chapters 11-14, Paul addresses their problems in their worship services.

• Women prophesying and praying in corporate worship should have a head covering
• Their abusing the Lord’s Supper
• Their misunderstanding of spiritual gifts
• The overarching importance of love
• Their misuse of tongues and prophesy in the worship service

In chapter 14, Paul says that:

• Only two or at the most three people should speak in tongues at church and then only if there is an interpreter
• If there was NO interpreter, Paul says that the person speaking in tongues should “keep silent”
• Only two or at the most three people should prophesy and the rest of the congregation should evaluate the prophesy
• If someone has a revelation and needs to speak, the first person should “keep silent”. Paul says that God is a God of order.

Next, Paul says that women should be silent and wait until they get home to ask their husbands questions about the church services. Well, he already said in chapter 11 that they could prophesy and pray in public as long as their head were covered. I think that the “silent” part fits with the above two “keep silent” issues.

Could it be that Paul was asking that women “keep silent” and not judge the prophesies? I have trouble with this because he has already given them permission TO prophesy.

I feel that Paul is possibly talking about disruptive speaking. The church at Corinth has SO MANY problems. Wives talking out loud and asking questions could have been one of them. This WHOLE chapter is about maintaining order when tongues and prophesy are going on in the church – not about forbidding women to open their mouths.

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Jayne

[Willa]

Women were also allowed to pray aloud.  Silent prayer was so unusual that when Samuel's mother Hannah  prayed silently in the Temple they thought she was drunk.  1 Samuel 1:13.   

1 Cor 11:5-6  ESV

But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered dishonors her head. For it is one and the same thing as if she were shaved.

1Co 11:6  For if a woman is not covered, let her hair also be cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or be shaved, let her be covered.

 

I have to add that I have short hair and don't bother to cover my head.  

My take on this is that a woman's long hair is her pride.  A proud woman is likely not in submission.  So she should cover her hair.  Most often mentioned is that we should be in submission.  So we are not allowed to debate or ask questions and disrupt a church service.  Men were likely allowed to do this as I understand the style of teaching that was used was often that of question and answer.  Women should ask their husbands at home.  This is honoring his priesthood in the home as well.  He has the responsibility of both teaching his family and praying for them.  

 

Now I have a question.  The mother often led the Seder.  So why was this?  Even the young children had parts in this Passover meal ritual.  

[Jayne]

I'm not on the bandwagon of the husband being the priest or prophet or king of the home.  I don't see that in the Bible as his prescribed role.  He is the head of the wife, but not her go-between between the wife and God.  The wife has as much direct access to God as he does.  So do the the children.

But it is the husband's and father's role to be the administrator so-to-speak of seeing that first, his wife is "washed" with the word of God [Ephesians] and second that his children are instructed in Bible teaching [Deuteronomy].

But that doesn't mean that he is the only one to pray, read or teach the Bible, or to model faithfulness.

It's just his job to make sure it gets done.  He might do the following:

• Ask his wife to work up a study on the Lord's Prayer and bring that to the family at devotional time
• Tell his son to read the 23rd Psalm to the family at family time and then they all discuss it
• Make sure his high school daughters don't get disinterested in church going and make sure they get up and at'em on Sunday mornings
• Train his children in consistent Bible study and consistent prayer

It's his role as the spiritual leader to see that his family is immersed in the word and prayer.  It's not his role to be sole one who prays, sings, or leads in reading and discussing the Word.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Jayne

[Jayne]

36 minutes ago, Davidjayjordan said:

if you are into church, study Paul. If you are full time disciple of the Lord, put the Lord';s words first and forget Paul when he contradicts Jesus. Obey the Lord and serve in all ways just like a man... even as the Bride of Christ.

I am "into" church.  The church is the Bride of Christ and I am part of that.  Certainly there are true churches and false churches.  In the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ, himself, gave words of admonishment AND encourage to not one, but seven churches.

I love worshiping and fellowshipping with God's people in church.  I love obeying the commandments of Christ and fulfilling my role as disciple of Christ along with fellow believers during the week.

Being a church member and a "full time disciple of the Lord" as you call it are NOT mutally exclusive.  In fact, they should go hand in hand.

You are going to have to show me - jot and tittle - where the Apostle Paul contradicts Jesus.

[saved34]

4 hours ago, Jayne said:

I'm not on the bandwagon of the husband being the priest or prophet or king of the home.  I don't see that in the Bible as his prescribed role.  He is the head of the wife, but not her go-between between the wife and God.  The wife has as much direct access to God as he does.  So do the the children.

But it is the husband's and father's role to be the administrator so-to-speak of seeing that first, his wife is "washed" with the word of God [Ephesians] and second that his children are instructed in Bible teaching [Deuteronomy].

But that doesn't mean that he is the only one to pray, read or teach the Bible, or to model faithfulness.

It's just his job to make sure it gets done.  He might do the following:

• Ask his wife to work up a study on the Lord's Prayer and bring that to the family at devotional time
• Tell his son to read the 23rd Psalm to the family at family time and then they all discuss it
• Make sure his high school daughters don't get disinterested in church going and make sure they get up and at'em on Sunday mornings
• Train his children in consistent Bible study and consistent prayer

It's his role as the spiritual leader to see that his family is immersed in the word and prayer.  It's not his role to be sole one who prays, sings, or leads in reading and discussing the Word.

 

 

How about the husband being head and lord?

"1 Peter 3:6 NIV
like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."

"Ephesians 5:22-23 NIV
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. [23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior."

It is clear that in the Church God has called men to lead and over see. In the world women can minister and preach, in Church they are to be in quietness and subjection to male leadership, as should most men as well.

[Jayne]

4 minutes ago, saved34 said:

How about the husband being head and lord?

"1 Peter 3:6 NIV
like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."

"Ephesians 5:22-23 NIV
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. [23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior."

It is clear that in the Church God has called men to lead and over see. In the world women can minister and preach, in Church they are to be in quietness and subjection to male leadership, as should most men as well.

Yes, he is the head.  Lord?  Yes, Sarah called Abraham that, but we are not admonished to do the same.  Peter just used her as an example of a wife trusting her husband and showing it with her words.  I don't know too many husbands who honestly want their wives calling them lord.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Jayne

[saved34]

4 hours ago, Davidjayjordan said:

if you are into church, study Paul. If you are full time disciple of the Lord, put the Lord';s words first and forget Paul when he contradicts Jesus. Obey the Lord and serve in all ways just like a man... even as the Bride of Christ.

What Paul taught was direct revelation from the Lord. It is a grave sin to deny Pauls teachibgs as if they were contrary to the rest of scripture.

"2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV
Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. [16] He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

[saved34]

1 minute ago, Jayne said:

Yes, he is the head.  Lord?  Yes, Sarah called Abraham that, but we are not admonished to do the same.  Peter just used her as an example of a wife trusting her husband.

Thats a pretty strong example though. Even likening him to Christ as head should end all disputation. 

I could be wrong but it seems you are striving to disprove clear scripture of the headship, and leadership of man. 

[Jayne]

14 minutes ago, saved34 said:

Thats a pretty strong example though. Even likening him to Christ as head should end all disputation. 

I could be wrong but it seems you are striving to disprove clear scripture of the headship, and leadership of man. 

No, I am not trying to do that.  You are very wrong.

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement."

Sarah is not the subject of this sentence.  "Holy women of old" is the subject.  What did they do?  They reverences their husbands authority.

Sarah is mentioned parenthetically here.  See the colon?  She is not the standard of reverence - she is an example of reverence.

[saved34]

17 minutes ago, Jayne said:

No, I am not trying to do that.  You are very wrong.

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement."

Sarah is not the subject of this sentence.  "Holy women of old" is the subject.  What did they do?  They reverences their husbands authority.

Sarah is mentioned parenthetically here.  See the colon?  She is not the standard of reverence - she is an example of reverence.

The little word that connect Sarah's example to the "Women of old" is "also". The bottom line is it is a great ministry on the womans behalf to honor her husband just like Sarah and the women of old. Remember, it says "you are her daughters if you do what is right"