What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

[Ezra]

On 12/25/2016 at 9:24 AM, Mike 2 said:

You are hitting on the conflict we have when we talk about "Jesus"....are we talking about the human side or the divine side or the physical side?...It can be very confusing!

The only way to resolve the confusion is to consistently view the Lord Jesus Christ as the God-Man -- fully Divine and fully human (but without sin).  It would be a serious mistake to regard "the human side" separately from "the Divine side", and that becomes the source of many errors, e.g. Gnostic doctrines.

[Mike 2]

For the most part I would agree with you Ezra however from time to time we all come across people whether believers, seekers or (recently for me) people like atheists that try to  debunk the bible because they don't understand the trinity.

Those people often bring up questions that indicate they are not really grasping the God-Man that we understand because they are seeing the very things we have been discussing here and are confused.  

I think that forums like this are a very good place for us to share our thoughts and go a little deeper theologically so that we can better answer those questions when they arise and we don't become the source for errors. 

I also think with these discussions we can gain enough knowledge to see the errors in such things as Gnosticism (or other religions) and  confidently see how they differ from Christianity.

Our God is amazing in that He makes it so easy for us to understand who He is while at the same time gives us enough extra to keep us asking questions all our life.

  

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Mike 2

[Your closest friendnt]

On 12/26/2016 at 11:01 PM, Mike 2 said:

For the most part I would agree with you Ezra however from time to time we all come across people whether believers, seekers or (recently for me) people like atheists that try to  debunk the bible because they don't understand the trinity.

Those people often bring up questions that indicate they are not really grasping the God-Man that we understand because they are seeing the very things we have been discussing here and are confused.  

I think that forums like this are a very good place for us to share our thoughts and go a little deeper theologically so that we can better answer those questions when they arise and we don't become the source for errors. 

I also think with these discussions we can gain enough knowledge to see the errors in such things as Gnosticism (or other religions) and  confidently see how they differ from Christianity.

Our God is amazing in that He makes it so easy for us to understand who He is while at the same time gives us enough extra to keep us asking questions all our life.

  

 

I find your post the most interesting, I would like to agree with you , in some of the things that you highlight, but I can not find enough material in the criptures to show that you are correct in everything you post.

You must know the woman who was healed by touching Jesus. 

It seems that Jesus was not award about her till the moment he touched him. 

I do not see how someone or even yourself who have made John 5:19 as an absolute factual ocurance for a miracle to happen,  can view this event. 

I would like to have your input in this one, for more than one reason. 

There is another question that I need to asked you, but I can not at this time, not before you convince me, that you consider relevant information for your position, and you are not just pick and choose the parts that help you to reinforce the position you have found your self  into. 

Willful, or for a good reason to ignore scriptures that questions the position you are supporting, is not the way to advance sound understanding. 

Looking forwards to your response. 

I have three questions for you, that you think you have the correct answers, but really you don't. 

 

[Mike 2]

19 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I find your post the most interesting, I would like to agree with you , in some of the things that you highlight, but I can not find enough material in the criptures to show that you are correct in everything you post.

You must know the woman who was healed by touching Jesus. 

It seems that Jesus was not award about her till the moment he touched him. 

I do not see how someone or even yourself who have made John 5:19 as an absolute factual ocurance for a miracle to happen,  can view this event. 

I would like to have your input in this one, for more than one reason. 

There is another question that I need to asked you, but I can not at this time, not before you convince me, that you consider relevant information for your position, and you are not just pick and choose the parts that help you to reinforce the position you have found your self  into. 

Willful, or for a good reason to ignore scriptures that questions the position you are supporting, is not the way to advance sound understanding. 

Looking forwards to your response. 

I have three questions for you, that you think you have the correct answers, but really you don't. 

 

Other similar things....Why did Jesus pray? ...For one...The Father wanted to set an example in the physical for us to see, of how to pray.

Why was Jesus baptized? ...For one....The Father wanted to set an example in the physical for us to see, of obedience. 

I'm sure we could find a number of examples that would seem to indicate that there was a disconnect of the trinity if we don't consider that the purpose of the passage is a lesson.

 

Joh 5:19  Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, What the Father does, the Son does likewise. 

I think you are asking me how I can see this verse applying when Jesus wasn't even aware of her presence until she touched him.

One thing we do know about the passage is that the healing came through her interaction with Jesus.

Because you have not yet presented me with your point of view I will continue with mine.

My point of view will require that I ask questions as to why someone would come to the conclusion that Jesus did not first see the Father do this healing.

My questions would start with;

Is the passage a statement or intended as a lesson ?

What is happening in the passage?  

Is it in one Gospel  2, 3 or all of them? Each gospel writer was addressing a different demographic and therefore we see some passages in only one gospel.

What has happened just before the passage...does that flow into the passage or is there a definite disconnect in time and distance?

What is happening afterwards?

Do they all work together to stress one point , or variations of it?

Jesus asked who touched him? Was the question Jesus asking rhetorical?  

Did Jesus know someone was healed?

Do we assume because of the way Jesus spoke he did not know that someone was healed ?

Am I making any other assumptions?

Was Jesus asking the question in order to draw attention to the unclean person? Why?

Jairus, the synagogue leader in the same story was told to believe(have faith) . Was this passage intended to teach some lessons on faith and glorifying God?

These are just a few questions to ask and would result in a lot of study in order to have a good understanding of the passage.

What I do know is that I believe Joh 5:19 to be true and if I come up with something like the story of the bleeding woman that appears to contradict that; I have to default that the contradiction is a misunderstanding on my part and further explore it.

There is no doubt that the Father decided to heal that woman, before it happened, through Jesus. Was Jesus aware of it?

Joh 14:9  "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me?" Jesus asked him. "The person who has seen me has seen the Father. So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 
Joh 14:10  You believe, don't you, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own. It is the Father who dwells in me and who carries out his work. 
Joh 14:11  Believe me, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. 

Since you brought it up. ..What relevant information could you show me that would indicate that sometimes Jesus was unaware of the Father working through him?

 

[Your closest friendnt]

17 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

Other similar things....Why did Jesus pray? ...For one...The Father wanted to set an example in the physical for us to see, of how to pray. 

I have to somehow acknowledge what you are highlighting, this is an excellent question. 

I have to look into specific situations, one time Jesus appeal to the Father in Heaven before he did one of the miracles, and he did say, I do not do this for my self, ( I do not have to asked him, within the meaning , if I do not asked him I will failed to heal the sick),  

He said I do this for the people to know that I am working together with the Father, that I am from the Father . 

For people had witnessed Jesus, just putting his hands on the sick, and without saying nothing the sick were healed. 

That the healing power in him, healed the sick he touched. The annoynting,

No need to say that everyone Jesus touched at the course of his ministry was healed. 

It was not something like it was happening all the time, but when he put his hands on the people for that purpose. 

We know that one time Jesus could not do many miracles in one place, and that it was not because the Father did not want to heal those sick people but for another reason, because they did not believe that Jesus was not the promised one to come. 

(In the past the Jews had the witness of Elias, who was doing what Moses had failed to do, speak things into existence. 

We see that Elias had the power in him self, and that power remained in him without any conditions as in the case of Samson, 

Elias had used his powers to protect himself from the men of the king who had come to arrest him twice and he intended to continue to use it. 

It is not that because the captain of the third group told him that the king has harden his heart and will not stop till you come with us, that Elias follow them. 

We see the one who stop him it was the Lord, who promised his safety, and asked him to go to the king and he will not died. 

We see that the power was vested on Elias, and the use was not only at the Lords discretion, but also  at the disposal of his own discretion, this powers were given to him , they were part of him self, he did not have to pray and asked the Lord for the manifestation. 

It is noteworthy to mention that the Lord did not threaten him that if he did not do it , he will loose the power vested in him, and he will be on his own weak self. 

The same thing with Jesus, he was vested with powers, and even thought he knew the Father's will and he understood his mission,

Still he had to make his own disitions about his own destiny , 

We see that he did prayed in the Garden, and it was about  him and the path he had to follow, 

He had powers vested in him and he could used them to protect himself, from the men who came to arrest him, but he disided not to take the path Elias did. 

If Elias had those power vested in him, how about Jesus, and Jesus knew that the Father will not intervin and protect him, or to quarantee his safety from the men who came to arrest him, the way it had happened with Elias. 

The life and safety of Jesus it was on his own hands, he had the power to protect himself but he did not do it.

Like a sheep he let the people lead him to his death , only the sheep does not know what it is going to happen, but Jesus did.

Even if the sheep knew, the sheep  did not have the power to stop those who led it to his slaughter. 

Jesus not only knew but he had the power vested in him and he could stopped them, without shedding anyone's blood. 

He demonstrated his powers to keep himself safe at the time, when  they were coming to arrest him. 

Some strange power came out of him and the people who came to arrest him were pushed back and fall down. 

The people thought that the Father will intervin and Saved him, but they did not know the will of the Father , who send his Son to died for the whole word .

Jesus could but he did not saved him self. 

17 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

 

Why was Jesus baptized? ...For one....The Father wanted to set an example in the physical for us to see, of obedience. 

I'm sure we could find a number of examples that would seem to indicate that there was a disconnect of the trinity if we don't consider that the purpose of the passage is a lesson.

 

Joh 5:19  Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, What the Father does, the Son does likewise. 

I think you are asking me how I can see this verse applying when Jesus wasn't even aware of her presence until she touched him.

One thing we do know about the passage is that the healing came through her interaction with Jesus.

Because you have not yet presented me with your point of view I will continue with mine.

My point of view will require that I ask questions as to why someone would come to the conclusion that Jesus did not first see the Father do this healing.

My questions would start with;

Is the passage a statement or intended as a lesson ?

What is happening in the passage?  

Is it in one Gospel  2, 3 or all of them? Each gospel writer was addressing a different demographic and therefore we see some passages in only one gospel.

What has happened just before the passage...does that flow into the passage or is there a definite disconnect in time and distance?

What is happening afterwards?

Do they all work together to stress one point , or variations of it?

Jesus asked who touched him? Was the question Jesus asking rhetorical?  

Did Jesus know someone was healed?

Do we assume because of the way Jesus spoke he did not know that someone was healed ?

Am I making any other assumptions?

Was Jesus asking the question in order to draw attention to the unclean person? Why?

Jairus, the synagogue leader in the same story was told to believe(have faith) . Was this passage intended to teach some lessons on faith and glorifying God?

These are just a few questions to ask and would result in a lot of study in order to have a good understanding of the passage.

What I do know is that I believe Joh 5:19 to be true and if I come up with something like the story of the bleeding woman that appears to contradict that; I have to default that the contradiction is a misunderstanding on my part and further explore it.

There is no doubt that the Father decided to heal that woman, before it happened, through Jesus. Was Jesus aware of it?

Joh 14:9  "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me?" Jesus asked him. "The person who has seen me has seen the Father. So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 
Joh 14:10  You believe, don't you, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own. It is the Father who dwells in me and who carries out his work. 
Joh 14:11  Believe me, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. 

Since you brought it up. ..What relevant information could you show me that would indicate that sometimes Jesus was unaware of the Father working through him?

 

 

[Mike 2]

I haven't figured out the quote and paste stuff on this site yet so I'll add my 2 cents worth in blue (Mike)

I have to somehow acknowledge what you are highlighting, this is an excellent question. 

I have to look into specific situations, one time Jesus appeal to the Father in Heaven before he did one of the miracles, and he did say, I do not do this for my self, ( I do not have to asked him, within the meaning , if I do not asked him I will failed to heal the sick),  

He said I do this for the people to know that I am working together with the Father, that I am from the Father . 

For people had witnessed Jesus, just putting his hands on the sick, and without saying nothing the sick were healed. 

That the healing power in him, healed the sick he touched. The annoynting,

No need to say that everyone Jesus touched at the course of his ministry was healed. 

It was not something like it was happening all the time, but when he put his hands on the people for that purpose. 

Yes I agree that it is possible that Jesus just put his hands on people without saying anything but we have to keep in mind what his purpose was. That was to glorify the Father. We see many instances where Jesus uses the opportunity when healing to share the reality of God the Father and his connection to Him (often by forgiving sin) . I am sure the instances recorded are just a fraction of what Jesus did.

Joh 21:25  Of course, Jesus also did many other things, and I suppose that if every one of them were written down the world couldn't contain the books that would be written. 

I think the take away for me in that is that if God has given me a gift I should always be looking for opportunities to glorify Him when using it.

Is it possible to use a gift from God selfishly and therefore lose it?

1 Sam 15 tells the story of Saul using his gift to win the favor of men for his own self worth. The story culminates in 16:15 with him losing the gift.

In Psalm 51 David acknowledges his sin and the thought of losing Gods gift after being convicted of the sin that came out of his desire for Bathsheba

We know that one time Jesus could not do many miracles in one place, and that it was not because the Father did not want to heal those sick people but for another reason, because they did not believe that Jesus was not the promised one to come. 

That fits in so well with the lesson in the stories of Jairus and the bleeding woman . If there must be a faith component does the person receiving the blessing already know that it comes from the Father (God) and not the person passing it on? If so, that is encouraging in sharing the gospel because we then already see God at work!

(In the past the Jews had the witness of Elias, who was doing what Moses had failed to do, speak things into existence. 

We see that Elias had the power in him self, and that power remained in him without any conditions as in the case of Samson, 

Samson did break from the conditions he had as a Nazarene and that created a lot of problems for him

Elias had used his powers to protect himself from the men of the king who had come to arrest him twice and he intended to continue to use it. 

It is not that because the captain of the third group told him that the king has harden his heart and will not stop till you come with us, that Elias follow them. 

We see the one who stop him it was the Lord, who promised his safety, and asked him to go to the king and he will not died. 

We see that the power was vested on Elias, and the use was not only at the Lords discretion, but also  at the disposal of his own discretion, this powers were given to him , they were part of him self, he did not have to pray and asked the Lord for the manifestation. 

Do you think it is possible that Elias (Elijah) was so focused on God and so dedicated to Him that all he did was for Gods glory and that people knew that?...After all he is one of 2 people that just"went up to heaven" not seeing death.....dude must have been exceptional.

It is noteworthy to mention that the Lord did not threaten him that if he did not do it , he will loose the power vested in him, and he will be on his own weak self. 

The same thing with Jesus, he was vested with powers, and even thought he knew the Father's will and he understood his mission,

Still he had to make his own disitions about his own destiny , 

We see that he did prayed in the Garden, and it was about  him and the path he had to follow, 

He had powers vested in him and he could used them to protect himself, from the men who came to arrest him, but he disided not to take the path Elias did. 

Isn't that a wonderful realization...Jesus knew that if he suffered through what had to be done, so many would benefit. He did it for us! The human side of him that felt physical pain and no doubt saw many crucifixions must have been terrified. Never mind the spiritual suffering the Son knew he would go through. 

If Elias had those power vested in him, how about Jesus, and Jesus knew that the Father will not intervin and protect him, or to quarantee his safety from the men who came to arrest him, the way it had happened with Elias. 

The life and safety of Jesus it was on his own hands, he had the power to protect himself but he did not do it.

Like a sheep he let the people lead him to his death , only the sheep does not know what it is going to happen, but Jesus did.

Even if the sheep knew, the sheep  did not have the power to stop those who led it to his slaughter. 

Jesus not only knew but he had the power vested in him and he could stopped them, without shedding anyone's blood. 

He demonstrated his powers to keep himself safe at the time, when  they were coming to arrest him. 

Some strange power came out of him and the people who came to arrest him were pushed back and fall down. 

I believe these people knew very well what Jesus had done, that he had power they had never seen before and they fell back through nothing Jesus did at the time but in sheer fear and respect, especially after he used the term I AM.

Joh 18:6  When Jesus told them, "I AM," they backed away and fell to the ground.

As you said he could have gotten out of it, these people were afraid of him and what he might do, he probably could have walked right past them at that time. Not only did he stop people (his friends) who saw him as a victim from defending him but he freely went to the slaughter.
 

The people thought that the Father will intervin and Saved him, but they did not know the will of the Father , who send his Son to died for the whole word .

Jesus could but he did not saved him self.

Hope you had a good Christmas we got a lot of snow north of you.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

Sorry will post later

Edited January 2, 2017 by Your closest friendnt
Refreshing the post, delete

[Your closest friendnt]

On 1/1/2017 at 5:33 PM, Mike 2 said:

 

Jesus not only knew but he had the power vested in him and he could stopped them, without shedding anyone's blood. 

He demonstrated his powers to keep himself safe at the time, when  they were coming to arrest him. 

Some strange power came out of him and the people who came to arrest him were pushed back and fall down. 

I believe these people knew very well what Jesus had done, that he had power they had never seen before and they fell back through nothing Jesus did at the time but in sheer fear and respect, especially after he used the term I AM.

Joh 18:6  When Jesus told them, "I AM," they backed away and fell to the ground.

As you said he could have gotten out of it, these people were afraid of him and what he might do, he probably could have walked right past them at that time. Not only did he stop people (his friends) who saw him as a victim from defending him but he freely went to the slaughter.
 

The people thought that the Father will intervin and Saved him, but they did not know the will of the Father , who send his Son to died for the whole word .

 

Hello M2, Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to you too. 

In John 18:6, a strong  reference is made to the answer Jesus gave.

Jesus had asked "whom are you looking to find?" 

They replied "Jesus of Nazareth". 

Jesus gave an answer, to inform them that he is the one they are looking for. 

He indedifie him self as the one they were looking for. 

Did they believe him? 

Even with Judas kiss, they were not convince that he really is the one, they still had a reasonable doubt? 

Positive identification is an issue in this arrest. 

Jesus said: let the others go, you have the one you are looking for, Jesus of Nazareth. 

This voluntary confession created suspicions, he could be someone who was willing to take the place of Jesus, even Judas was not trusted, he could be part of a plan to deliver the wrong man to the Jews. 

Possitive Identification was an issue, 

They wanted Jesus they will not let anyone leave unless they were certain that Jesus is the man they have. 

Then something happened, Peter actions to cut the ear of the servant gave JESUS the opportunity to perform a miracle. 

Then they knew beyond a reasonable doubt that they had the miracle man, and they arrested Jesus and let the others go. 

There is more than one  reason why I had to make these comments.

One of them is that the reason they went backwards and fall to the ground it was not fear, because they did not believed that he was the one at that time. 

And if they had some fears , those fears did not stopped them arresting him , at the time after he was possitively identify. 

That reinforces that some power blew towards them and against their will back away and fall down. 

"Every knee shall bow down to him", and this is not by the will of anyone, 

There is not defience in this matter, it just happens. 

(That does not mean the people who fall down  show it in that way, the same as when the Vail was split, the Jews did not see it the way you do, because they continue to do what they were doing before ,  and without any fear) , 

It seems Jesus had the power to keep them away from him without killing anyone as in the case of Elijah who use fire to keel the ones who had come to arrest him. 

And another thing: 

To take the answer Jesus gave and make some kind of mystic situation, by a reference to the words in the OT " I AM THAT I AM", is not, and can not be derived from the context. 

Why the answer of Jesus to identify himself is taken in that way, he was asked and answered that, the one you are looking is me, suggesting is none of the others .

What other words could he used to give a positive answer to their inquiry. 

He said, "ego eimai" ,

"ego" pointing to himself, and "eimai" pointing to himself with a strong emphasis . 

His answer was , I am Jesus of Nazareth the one you are looking for. 

This is the full answer, when they said ,they are looking for Jesus of Nazareth,  "I am Jesus of Nazareth". 

That what Jesus said and that what he meant to say. 

To suggest that he said, " I am (the God Almighty who spoken to Moses), is not the correct answer because they were not looking for "God Almighty" , but for Jesus of Nazareth. 

Why the strong emphasis of the translators to capitalize the answer of Jesus, when it is not in this fashion in the original text, and it can not be suggested from the context.  , (it is I , or it is me the one you are looking for). 

Jesus had nothing to do with the ways of the "God Almighty ", who reaveled him self later as " the Lord God of the Jews only", 

He opposed him, he teared down his presepts in any possible opportunity, and he made it clear that he is distancing him self or cutting him self off his ways by putting new rules into effect. 

It is not that Jesus had to face and confront the Lord of the Jews. 

There is only one Lord of Lords, and one judge over all, and his name is JESUS, and not Lord God of the Jews only. 

We understand that the Lord God consider who he was and who can not be and what can not do, and he left everything to be born and enter our world through Myriam. 

Jesus has nothing to do with the world of the Lord God, he has his own world, the new world in his name. 

Faith and Grace it came through Jesus Christ. 

This is something new not found in the world of the Lord God. 

And FAITH and GRACE came to all people of the world, Jesus died for all. 

All we need is Jesus, and everything that comes with Jesus. 

Jesus will takes us in the same place , where the Father is. And that is Heaven.

Stephen he show that in his vision , just before he dies, God show him the new world. 

God show him the new inheritance for those who die with faith in Jesus Christ. 

Preach Jesus only, stay away from controversy. 

Hope I have not deliberately offend anyone, and that not in my propose. 

I understand about Jesus Christ the Savior, and the Heavenly Father who has given everything to Jesus, and what that means. 

And that also includes the Holy Spirit of the Father to help him in his ministry. 

To say something more than the disciples of Jesus teach, and have a good excuse, that does not sit right, to claim it as a proactive prevention against some herecy, like immunizing people for something . 

And resulting in some frivolous examples, like the one that depicts Jesus as a broken chair. 

Like if you have faith in Jesus Christ and you leave it at that , you are sitting on a broken chair.

That's not truth . 

[Mike 2]

 

5 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Jesus had nothing to do with the ways of the "God Almighty ", who reaveled him self later as " the Lord God of the Jews only", 

He opposed him, he teared down his presepts in any possible opportunity, and he made it clear that he is distancing him self or cutting him self off his ways by putting new rules into effect. 

It is not that Jesus had to face and confront the Lord of the Jews. 

There is only one Lord of Lords, and one judge over all, and his name is JESUS, and not Lord God of the Jews only. 

We understand that the Lord God consider who he was and who can not be and what can not do, and he left everything to be born and enter our world through Myriam. 

Jesus has nothing to do with the world of the Lord God, he has his own world, the new world in his name. 

Closest Friend,

I'm not sure where you are getting this understanding from (have you been reading any Gnostic writings?) but the bible is clear in many ways that Jesus has EVERYTHING to do with God Almighty.

If what you are saying in your post (quoted above) were true. Then you would be saying that Jesus contradicts God...." Jesus has nothing to do with the world of the Lord God, he has his own world, the new world in his name. "  In making this statement you present an impasse in which Jesus and God cannot have the same purpose .

We and the world we live in were created by God through the Son for the sole purpose of us being in relationship with God.

Our exploration of the Trinity in this discussion has been looking at the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as we see it revealed to us in the bible.

The Son is that part of the Trinity, that part of God that interacts with the physical. We see that being done in the person/ body of Jesus.

The Son is not separate from God, he is God. As we have already discussed and seen in some of the many biblical verses available to us Jesus (the Son) and the Father are one and the same

Joh 14:9  "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me?" Jesus asked him. "The person who has seen me has seen the Father. So how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 
Joh 14:10  You believe, don't you, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own. It is the Father who dwells in me and who carries out his work. 
Joh 14:11  Believe me, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. 

Col 1:15  The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 
Col 1:16  For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him. 
Col 1:17  He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together. 
Col 1:18  He is also the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself might have first place in everything. 
Col 1:19  For God was pleased to have all of his divine essence inhabit him. 

How is it possible that Jesus could truthfully make those statements? If what you are saying is true than what Jesus says about his relationship with the Father will be a contradiction for you.

If when looking at teachings OUTSIDE the bible and comparing them to what the bible says there is a contradiction....we have to default to what is revealed in the bible, if we don't, we start to introduce something other than what God is intending.

I think I need you to show me the biblical texts that helped you come to your conclusion.

 

 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

 

Jesus has EVERYTHING to do with God Almighty.

Jesus grew up just like everyone else, just like me and you. 

He went through all the stages of life just like anyone else that is born in this world. 

Just like anyone else he came with nothing in this world. 

I do not mean that he was not anoyndent and he had a very propose and a mission to fullfil , but he did not know that till the time that it was made known to him.

Jesus unlike anyone else who is born in this world had a past life, but not as a human been. 

From the scriptures you have posted you must understand who he was and what he did in his past life, before he started his new life as a human been just like me and you, conceived and growing as a fetus, as a new born baby , toddler and so on. 

He did not need an earthly Father to come into existence , because he had a life before he was conceived. 

You know about his miraculous birth, no need to comment about that. 

From the scriptures you have posted we learn that Jesus must have been informed at some time and not from his parents, about who he was and what he did, in his past existence . 

But that must have happened not before his parents teach him the basic beliefs of their faith, not only about their Abrahamic inheritance , and Jacob and how God Almighty created man, and the stories about Moses and how the Creator appeared to Moses, and how he made himself known to him as God Almighty, and how later on he made himself known to them as the Lord God of the Jews.

His parents must have teach him to call upon the Lord God of the Jews. 

They also told him that Joseph was his father. 

(And they must, if not they would have many problems , especially his mother). 

We see that by the time when Jesus was twelve years old, he knew who his real Father was, and that was not from his mother, who was very surprised to hear him say that he was on his Father's business, and making reference to the Heavenly Father , and not to the Creator the Lord God of the Jews , who had made himself known to them and to Moses as the God Almighty. 

Jesus must have been informed at some time (I don't understand when, that he in his past existence was the Creator , who appeared to Abraham and made himself known as the God Almighty to Moses, and later as the Lord God of the Jews. 

Hope that you can see the same thing in the scriptures not only in Colossians but also in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. 

That's for the time being. 

God bless. 

Can not post all at ones, 

What do you think , do the disciples teach something else? 

3 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

If what you are saying in your post (quoted above) were true. Then you would be saying that Jesus contradicts God...." Jesus has nothing to do with the world of the Lord God, he has his own world, the new world in his name. "  In making this statement you present an impasse in which Jesus and God cannot have the same purpose . 

I own you an explanation , because from your answer I can see you misanderdood my statements. 

3 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

We and the world we live in were created by God through the Son 

3 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

Our exploration of the Trinity in this discussion has been looking at the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as we see it revealed to us in the bible.

 

Joh 14:10  You believe, don't you, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own. It is the Father who dwells in me and who carries out his work. 
Joh 14:11  Believe me, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. 

Col 1:15  The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 

 

3 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

Col 1:16  For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him. 

 

3 hours ago, Mike 2 said:

Col 1:17  He himself existed before anything else did, and he holds all things together. 
Col 1:18  He is also the head of the body, which is the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself might have first place in everything. 
Col 1:19  For God was pleased to have all of his divine essence inhabit him. 

 

I think I need you to show me the biblical texts that helped you come to your conclusion.

 

We see in the scriptures that the Heavenly Father has remained in the Heavens all the time, and only Jesus is the one who made him known to us. 

This is telling us the Heavenly Father was waiting for Jesus Christ before making himself known to us, and the Jews .