Legitimacy of Israel

[Steve_S]

4 hours ago, Joline said:

What the hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Are you able to even have a discussion of Scripture Ezra? I spoke concerning what is taught in scripture.

The first covenant made with Abraham was an earthly worldly covenant of natural heirs, and their inheritance. You can read it right from the law. You can also read about that in Hebrews and Acts. Abraham is not made a father of many nations nor inherits the land in that covenant.

It's almost four in the morning and due to that I'm a little punchy, but I keep seeing the land covenant in Genesis 15 being brought up. The land promise of Canaan (which is what this thread is addressing), and it is an eternal, physical promise (or certainly seems to be if you read the scriptures literally) is probably best delineated in Genesis 17:

Gen 17:7  And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 
Gen 17:8  And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God." 

I don't think that the Israelites could ever abrogate the promise God made to Abraham here by bad behavior. God flat out promised that Abraham's offspring get that land. I believe God's promises. We also know that this covenant goes specifically through Isaac and not Ishmael:

Gen 17:19  God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 
Gen 17:20  As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 
Gen 17:21  But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year."

And through Jacob and not Esau:

Gen 28:13  And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, "I am the LORD, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring. 
Gen 28:14  Your offspring shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south, and in you and your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 
Gen 28:15  Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land. For I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you." 

 

[Guest Robert]

9 hours ago, Sovran Grace Baptist said:

Gen. 14.13 "And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eschol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram".

Several thousand years later, the Jew appears, 2 Ki. 16.6 "At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day".

If these Jews are God's people from Issac (In Issac shall thy seed be called), Abram (Abraham) knew not of them. If I'm not mistaken Lev. 26 is the land covenant. As far as that goes, the Jews, Abraham's seed or no, Jehovah says no land to disobedient people to whom He stretched his hand all day along. The link is a dead link, by the way, as the site saya no content can be located. When the Jews as a whole say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord, Hosanna in the highest to the Zech. 9.9 King they peirced, 12.10, 13.6 over their rabbinic Gemara or Mishna, I'll happily say "yes" to them. Very few sadly do.

What's more, Strong's Hebrew 'Ibriy #5680 and Yhuwidy #3064 are different words in Hebrew meaning different things, so I do not believe the Jew or the Israelite or Hebrew are the same according to the scriptures. 

Good day.

 

When God made his covenant with Abraham, He did two specific things. The first was telling Abraham that his descendants would possess the land forever. And yes, while Israel was disciplined at times and even removed per God's warnings to them, they were never removed permanently:
 

Quote

 

" The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, “Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever. I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered. “Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth; for I will give it to you.” Then Abram moved his tent and came and dwelt by the oaks of Mamre, which are in Hebron, and there he built an altar to the LORD. "

 

(Genesis 13: 14-18, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Secondly, the Lord knew that Abraham's children could not keep the covenant; nevertheless, God kept His promise. Note that only God alone passed between the pieces of the animals:

Quote

"He said, “O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?” So He said to him, “Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds. The birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away. Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him. God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years. “But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions. “As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.” It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces." (Genesis 15:8-15, NASB, emphasis mine)

In Semitic culture, it was supposed to be both parties holding hands passing between the pieces, reciting the oath; if either side broke that oath, they would become like those animals. because God passed by Himself, He would uphold both sides of the covenant.  Since it was broken (repeatedly), God paid the price for that transgression...

... when He came to earth to die on the Cross.

It is when we trust in Jesus Christ that our transgression (Jew and Gentile alike) are forgiven and we are cleansed of the stain of sin. As for Israel, God still has promises to keep to Abraham's descendants. "Replacement Theology" (which claims the church now has Abraham's promises) is satanic and a form of theft.

BTW: in your posts, you seem to resent the Jews quite a bit; am I wrong on what I am seeing here?

[George]

Psa 105:6  O offspring of Abraham, his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones! 
Psa 105:7  He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. 
Psa 105:8  He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations, 
Psa 105:9  the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac, 
Psa 105:10  which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant, 
Psa 105:11  saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan as your portion for an inheritance."

[Guest]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Well, if your theology is based on selected portions of the Bible and you feel you can neglect other portions, then it is impossible to have a decent discussion on everything the Bible says about Israel.   You are cherry picking the parts that you want  that fit your anti-Israel agenda.

Back at ya Shiloh. We have the new covenant teachings. These indeed are select...............

[Guest]

3 hours ago, George said:

Isa 105:6  O offspring of Abraham, his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones! 
Psa 105:7  He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. 
Psa 105:8  He remembers his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations, 
Psa 105:9  the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac, 
Psa 105:10  which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant, 
Psa 105:11  saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan as your portion for an inheritance."

Indeed, the inheritance of the natural Children is found in Genesis 15.

The entire tribe of Levi has no portion of Inheritance with Israel................Are they the offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

De 10:9  Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.
De 12:12  And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.
De 18:2  Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
Jos 18:7  But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, RobertS said:

 

When God made his covenant with Abraham, He did two specific things. The first was telling Abraham that his descendants would possess the land forever. And yes, while Israel was disciplined at times and even removed per God's warnings to them, they were never removed permanently:
 

(Genesis 13: 14-18, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Secondly, the Lord knew that Abraham's children could not keep the covenant; nevertheless, God kept His promise. Note that only God alone passed between the pieces of the animals:

In Semitic culture, it was supposed to be both parties holding hands passing between the pieces, reciting the oath; if either side broke that oath, they would become like those animals. because God passed by Himself, He would uphold both sides of the covenant.  Since it was broken (repeatedly), God paid the price for that transgression...

... when He came to earth to die on the Cross.

It is when we trust in Jesus Christ that our transgression (Jew and Gentile alike) are forgiven and we are cleansed of the stain of sin. As for Israel, God still has promises to keep to Abraham's descendants. "Replacement Theology" (which claims the church now has Abraham's promises) is satanic and a form of theft.

BTW: in your posts, you seem to resent the Jews quite a bit; am I wrong on what I am seeing here?

The Priesthood had no portion of inheritance with Israel. The Lord was their inheritance, the priesthood was their inheritance.

It seems to me Some here think it Anti Semetic to consider the Holy Anointed ones of Abraham's seed? How is that?

I do believe maybe the problem here is.....The Apostles seen themselves as more than just natural sons of Abraham. They understood "priesthood" as the foundational concept of their calling. So many here seem to not consider that at all.

Does seeing the entire Apostolic calling as first and foremost a PRIESTHOOD make a person anti-Semetic, or Anti-Pharasaic?

Or are some here so caught up in Pharisaic notions, that you cannot actually see that aspect of the new covenant ekklesia in Christ?

And if you could consider this for a moment, what would be the first replacement theology we see concerning this?

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Steve_S said:

It's almost four in the morning and due to that I'm a little punchy, but I keep seeing the land covenant in Genesis 15 being brought up. The land promise of Canaan (which is what this thread is addressing), and it is an eternal, physical promise (or certainly seems to be if you read the scriptures literally) is probably best delineated in Genesis 17:

Gen 17:7  And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 
Gen 17:8  And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God." 

I don't think that the Israelites could ever abrogate the promise God made to Abraham here by bad behavior. God flat out promised that Abraham's offspring get that land. I believe God's promises. We also know that this covenant goes specifically through Isaac and not Ishmael:

Gen 17:19  God said, "No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 
Gen 17:20  As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 
Gen 17:21  But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year."

And through Jacob and not Esau:

Gen 28:13  And behold, the LORD stood above it and said, "I am the LORD, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring. 
Gen 28:14  Your offspring shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south, and in you and your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 
Gen 28:15  Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land. For I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you." 

 

Where are the new covenant teachings concerning these things Patriot?

Abraham was given Heirs in Genesis 15..................And those heirs were the 4th generation of his seed.........

The Sons of Jacob through his twelve sons

1. Isaac, 2, Jacob, 3 Joseph, and all the generation which died in Egypt

Moses brought out the 4th Generation of Abraham's seed according to the promise of the covenant..............

the fathers knew they would be DEAD and buried by the time this covenant was fulfilled..........Hence Joseph told them to bring up his bones from Egypt........

Genesis 17  Circumcision is the covenant which gives Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob an inheritance of the land, and promises to be made a father of Many nations. Which land they all knew was inherited after their earthly lifetime.............................

Deut 5:3   And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. {keep…: Heb. keep to do them }
2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4  The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
 

[George]

3 hours ago, Joline said:

Indeed, the inheritance of the natural Children is found in Genesis 15.

The entire tribe of Levi has no portion of Inheritance with Israel................Are they the offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

De 10:9  Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.
De 12:12  And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.
De 18:2  Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
Jos 18:7  But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance

 

 

The Levites were Priests across all the tribes and didn't have a "land" inheritance like the others.  But how does this refute the Psalms?  Honestly, the Psalms were written long after this passage in Deuteronomy.  However, it really doesn't matter, because it doesn't "refute" the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's inheritance of the land of Canaan as the Psalms so clearly spelled out.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, George said:

The Levites were Priests across all the tribes and didn't have a "land" inheritance like the others.  But how does this refute the Psalms?  Honestly, the Psalms were written long after this passage in Deuteronomy.  However, it really doesn't matter, because it doesn't "refute" the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's inheritance of the land of Canaan as the Psalms so clearly spelled out.

The kingdom and priesthood in promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is not only natural sons.  Nor is it of this world this life.

[Steve_S]

4 hours ago, Joline said:

Back at ya Shiloh. We have the new covenant teachings. These indeed are select...............

I'm not sure where the idea that the new testament entirely negates the old testament comes from:

Look at Romans 11, though:

Rom 11:1  I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 
Rom 11:2  God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 

Why is Paul still speaking of Israel as "His people?" This was after Christ's death and resurrection and after pentecost and the new covenant was in full force and effect. Paul says "I am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham." Wouldn't one expect to have Paul saying "I am a Christian, the seed of Abraham" here if the new covenant entirely turned the old testament promises upon their head?

Rom 11:5  Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 
Rom 11:6  And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 

Here paul speaks of there being a "remnant according to the election of grace" regarding Israel then expands specifically on why that is important. Paul is obviously delineating, again, between gentile Christians and an elect remnant of Israelite descendants that is within the Body of Christ as a whole.

And then there's this:

Rom 11:24  For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 
Rom 11:25  For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB; 
Rom 11:27  FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 
Rom 11:28  Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 
Rom 11:30  For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 
Rom 11:31  even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 
Rom 11:32  For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 
Rom 11:33  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Paul here dares to claim that not only are the Israelites who reject Christ enemies concerning the gospel, but they are *still* "beloved for the sake of the fathers." Why? Because "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." I don't see how replacement theology can even be peripherally considered as possible based on this chapter alone. It is clear that the descendants (physical descendants) of Abraham are still receivers of God's promise to Him! If you somehow wedge into this that when the new testament speaks of the seed of Abraham, that it's concerning the church as a whole, then what part of the church are enemies concerning the gospel? This questions simply has no reasonable, scripturally rooted answer that isn't something along the lines of "of course no member of the Body of Christ is an enemy of the gospel!

Yes, I agree with you, the teachings of the new covenant are indeed select! They show the fulfillment of both God's prophecy and His promises to His faithful servants.