Legitimacy of Israel

[George]

21 minutes ago, Joline said:

The kingdom and priesthood in promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is not only natural sons.  Nor is it of this world this life.

Isa 66:20  And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 
Isa 66:21  And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. 

And so there's Levites in the age to come.  How does this NEGATE the promise of the land of Caanan to the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

?'m not sure where the idea that the new testament entirely negates the old testament comes from:

Look at Romans 11, though:

Rom 11:1  I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 
Rom 11:2  God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 

Why is Paul still speaking of Israel as "His people?" This was after Christ's death and resurrection and after pentecost and the new covenant was in full force and effect. Paul says "I am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham." Wouldn't one expect to have Paul saying "I am a Christian, the seed of Abraham" here if the new covenant entirely turned the old testament promises upon their head?

Rom 11:5  Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 
Rom 11:6  And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 

Here paul speaks of there being a "remnant according to the election of grace" regarding Israel then expands specifically on why that is important. Paul is obviously delineating, again, between gentile Christians and an elect remnant of Israelite descendants that is within the Body of Christ as a whole.

And then there's this:

Rom 11:24  For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 
Rom 11:25  For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB; 
Rom 11:27  FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 
Rom 11:28  Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 
Rom 11:30  For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 
Rom 11:31  even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 
Rom 11:32  For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 
Rom 11:33  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Paul here dares to claim that not only are the Israelites who reject Christ enemies concerning the gospel, but they are *still* "beloved for the sake of the fathers." Why? Because "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." I don't see how replacement theology can even be peripherally considered as possible based on this chapter alone. It is clear that the descendants (physical descendants) of Abraham are still receivers of God's promise to Him! If you somehow wedge into this that when the new testament speaks of the seed of Abraham, that it's concerning the church as a whole, then what part of the church are enemies concerning the gospel? This questions simply has no reasonable, scripturally rooted answer that isn't something along the lines of "of course no member of the Body of Christ is an enemy of the gospel!

Yes, I agree with you, the teachings of the new covenant are indeed select! They show the fulfillment of both God's prophecy and His promises to His faithful servants.

First of all, I said nothing about the old being Negated. These assumptions being made are stereo types. The old covenant is not negated, Jews are still under it today.  and are back in the land today. But that does not seem to be enough for some of you. Let me put it to you in similar fashion here. The Jew's are back in the land today because those covenants, have not been negated for them.......But Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are also not in that land with them today because, their inheritance is not according to the covenant made in Gen 15. Is that a little clearer?

I understand you do not AGREE with my views, but that in no wise makes my views fit your stereo type. I really do believe the problem with all this is....Some of you are dangerously close to replacing the heavenly inheritance, with the earthly worldly inheritance. They are not the same and never have been. I distinguish between the heavenly inheritance, and the earthly worldly inheritance. The earthly worldly kingdom of priests vs the heavenly kingdom of priests. Which my opinon is, the sect of the Pharisees greatly have diminished out jealousy and pride. Those influenced by their views do so as well. there is more than one kind of replacement theology you know, if some wish to see such things, examine yourselves likewise.

[Steve_S]

28 minutes ago, Joline said:

First of all, I said nothing about the old being Negated. These assumptions being made are stereo types. The old covenant is not negated, Jews are still under it today.  and are back in the land today. But that does not seem to be enough for some of you. Let me put it to you in similar fashion here. The Jew's are back in the land today because those covenants, have not been negated for them.......But Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are also not in that land with them today because, their inheritance is not according to the covenant made in Gen 15. Is that a little clearere

I understand you do not AGREE with my views, but that in no wise makes my views fit your stereo type. I really do believe the problem with all this is....Some of you are dangerously close to replacing the heavenly inheritance, with the earthly worldly inheritance. They are not the same and never have been. I distinguish between the heavenly inheritance, and the earthly worldly inheritance. The earthly worldly kingdom of priests vs the heavenly kingdom of priests. Which my opinon is the sect of the Pharisees greatly have diminished. Those influenced by their views do so as well. there is more than one kind of replacement theology you know, if some wish to see such things, examine yourselves likewise.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this. Could you more specifically expand on what you mean?

Just to attempt to address what I *think* you are getting at - No one in this thread has even came close to attempting to replace the physical inheritance of the descendants of Abraham with the heavenly inheritance given to those who have faith in Christ. Faith has *always* been the only way to the heavenly kingdom.

Quote

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 
Heb 11:2  For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 
Heb 11:3  By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. 
Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 
Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "AND WAS NOT FOUND, BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 
Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 
Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 
Heb 11:8  By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 
Heb 11:9  By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 
Heb 11:10  for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 
Heb 11:11  By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 
Heb 11:12  Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 
Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Every single one of God's faithful servants mentioned in Hebrews 11 (and many more) already understood what Christ taught regarding the kingdom:

Quote

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

And the new testament teaches that we are still justified by faith.

Quote

Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 
Rom 3:29  Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 
Rom 3:30  since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 

 

Not only does this show that faith is what justifies, it also goes to the earlier idea in this thread. God is the God of the jews and the God of the gentiles. He is the one true God, the Sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and both jews and gentiles will inherit the promises of the kingdom, but only jews will, in the temporal sense, inherit the land. It is exciting to know that we worship an awesome God!

Quote

Rom 11:33  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 

The main thing we have been discussing in this thread is the physical promise of land to Abraham's descendants, that is what the topic is about. I know the brothers in this thread that you have been having this discussion with. Don't take the fact that they discuss a topic within the context of a thread on a website to mean that they lack knowledge of the kingdom or the faith that justifies those who will inherit it.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

nI'm not sure what you're getting at with this. Could you more specifically expand on what you mean?

Just to attempt to address what I *think* you are getting at - No one in this thread has even came close to attempting to replace the physical inheritance of the descendants of Abraham with the heavenly inheritance given to those who have faith in Christ. Faith has *always* been the only way to the heavenly kingdom.

Every single one of God's faithful servants mentioned in Hebrews 11 (and many more) already understood what Christ taught regarding the kingdom:

And the new testament teaches that we are still justified by faith.

Not only does this show that faith is stuff what justifies, it also goes to the earlier idea in this thread. God is the God of the jews and the God of the gentiles. He is the one true God, the Sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and both jews and gentiles will inherit the promises of the kingdom, but only jews will, in the temporal sense, inherit the land. It is exciting to know that we worship an awesome God!

The main thing we have been discussing in this thread is the physical promise of land to Abraham's descendants, that is what the topic is about. I know the brothers in this thread that you have been having this discussion with. Don't take the fact that they discuss a topic within the context of a thread on a website to mean that they lack knowledge of the kingdom or the faith that justifies those who will inherit it.

The physical nation of Israel has an earthly worldly inheritance........in Genesis 15. That is all it is.......................They are the NATURAL Heirs, of that land.

The covenant made in Genesis 17 with Abraham is for a symbol. It is also based on the carnal command to his natural offspring.

They have nothing in this covenant that affords them anything in Christ above the Gentiles. Apart from Christ, yes it gives them advantage. But not in Christ. So why the big deal for believers?

[Steve_S]

Just now, Joline said:

The physical nation of Israel has a earthly worldly inheritance........in Genesis 15. That is all it is.......................They are the NATURAL Heirs.

The covenant made in Genesis 17 with Abraham is for a symbol. It is also based on the carnal command to his natural offspring.

They have nothing in this covenant that affords them anything in Christ above the Gentiles. Apart from Christ, yes it gives them advantage. But not in Christ. So why the big deal for believers?

It is not a "symbol." It is an everlasting guarantee from the Most High God. The eternal land promise for *canaan*, which is where Israel sits, was made in Genesis 17. I don't see how an eternal promise by the Sovereign God of the Universe to anyone, worthy of great scriptural study, could ever be considered *not* a big deal.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

 It is not a "symbol." It is an everlasting guarantee from the Most High God. The eternal land promise for *canaan*, which is where Israel sits, was made in Genesis 17. I don't see how an eternal promise by the Sovereign God of the Universe to anyone, worthy of great scriptural study, could ever be considered *not* a big deal.

It is not the land of this world and this earth this life, that is eternal. See there is your replacement theology right there...................You are taking the covenant promises to the fourth Generation for the covenant promises made 430 years earlier in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as all nations to which he is Made a father. Don't you see that?

 

[Steve_S]

1 minute ago, Joline said:

It is not the land of this world and this earth this life. See there is your replacement theology right there...................You are replacing the covenant promises to the fourth Generation with the covenant promises made 430 years earlier in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as all nations to which he is Made a father. Don't you see that?

 

I have no idea what you are talking about:

Quote

Gen 17:7  And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 
Gen 17:8  Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 

I'm not "replacing" anything. This is as literal as it gets. The scripture itself clearly states "all the land of canaan, as an everlasting possession." I'm only trumpeting what the actual text itself says. God made a promise to abraham, about land, said it was forever. I don't see the controversy. There is no replacement being made. This is what God says, God doesn't lie.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I have no idea what you are talking about:

I'm not "replacing" anything. This is as literal as it gets. The scripture itself clearly states "all the land of canaan, as an everlasting possession." I'm only trumpeting what the actual text itself says. God made a promise to abraham, about land, said it was forever. I don't see the controversy. There is no replacement being made. This is what God says, God doesn't lie.

So, Genesis 15 promises the land to the fourth Generation of his seed.....Is that abolished in the covenant of Circumcision? NO.  But Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not heirs in the covenant made in Genesis 15.

This is simple stuff that is taught by Paul in Galatians, it is taught by Luke in acts, and certainly is made clear in the book of Hebrews. But more than that it is clear in the very law itself.

The fourth Generation of his seed, Abraham will die, UNTO THY SEED I have given this land

Genesis 15:13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 ¶  And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning…: Heb. a lamp of fire }
18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
 

Nowhere does God give promise of the land here to Abraham, Isaac (1st generation), or Jacob (2nd generation) Joseph and all his brothers that dies in Egypt (3rd generation)................

Can you see this????????

Ac 7:5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

And again........................

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Joseph even told them to bring his bones up from Egypt, knowing he would be dead..... 

[Steve_S]

14 minutes ago, Joline said:

So, Genesis 15 promises the land to the fourth Generation of his seed.....Is that abolished in the covenant of Circumcision? NO.  But Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not heirs in the covenant made in Genesis 15.

This is simple stuff that is taught by Paul in Galatians, it is taught by Luke in acts, and certainly is made clear in the book of Hebrews. But more than that it is clear in the very law itself.

The fourth Generation of his seed, Abraham will die, UNTO THY SEED I have given this land

Genesis 15:13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 ¶  And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning…: Heb. a lamp of fire }
18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
 

Nowhere does God give promise of the land here to Abraham, Isaac (1st generation), or Jacob (2nd generation) Joseph and all his brothers that dies in Egypt (3rd generation)................

Can you see this????????

Ac 7:5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
 

You are confusing the promise here with the promise given in 17. What does verse 18 say?

Quote

18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The land delineated in genesis 15 is *massive.* It goes from modern day Cairo to Bahdad Iraq. The nile starts in Egypt and the Euphrates runs all the way through Turkey, Syria, and Iraq. That's a lot bigger than the land of Canaan.

Genesis 17 deals *specifically* with the promise of the land of Canaan:

Quote

Gen 17:7  And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 
Gen 17:8  Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 

So what is the land of Canaan? Thankfully, God tells us exactly what He meant when he said that Abraham's descendants through isaac would get Canaan as an everlasting possession:

Quote

Num 34:1  Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 
Num 34:2  "Command the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you come into the land of Canaan, this is the land that shall fall to you as an inheritance—the land of Canaan to its boundaries. 
Num 34:3  Your southern border shall be from the Wilderness of Zin along the border of Edom; then your southern border shall extend eastward to the end of the Salt Sea; 
Num 34:4  your border shall turn from the southern side of the Ascent of Akrabbim, continue to Zin, and be on the south of Kadesh Barnea; then it shall go on to Hazar Addar, and continue to Azmon; 
Num 34:5  the border shall turn from Azmon to the Brook of Egypt, and it shall end at the Sea. 
Num 34:6  'As for the western border, you shall have the Great Sea for a border; this shall be your western border. 
Num 34:7  'And this shall be your northern border: From the Great Sea you shall mark out your border line to Mount Hor; 
Num 34:8  from Mount Hor you shall mark out your border to the entrance of Hamath; then the direction of the border shall be toward Zedad; 
Num 34:9  the border shall proceed to Ziphron, and it shall end at Hazar Enan. This shall be your northern border. 
Num 34:10  'You shall mark out your eastern border from Hazar Enan to Shepham; 
Num 34:11  the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain; the border shall go down and reach to the eastern side of the Sea of Chinnereth; 
Num 34:12  the border shall go down along the Jordan, and it shall end at the Salt Sea. This shall be your land with its surrounding boundaries.' " 

Now, if the border for Canaan ends at the Jordan, then it cannot go to the euphrates. This would be a geographic impossibility. So when God brought Israel into Canaan he gave them a specific delineation of territory. This is a fraction of the property Mentioned in Genesis 15. It seems pretty probable that the land promise in 15 will be totally fulfilled during the Millennial reign, as Robert mentioned earlier. The borders that God delineated for physical Israel, vis-a-vis the land promise of Canaan, though, were defined in Numbers 34. This was expanded under various Israelite rulers and then began contraction as Israel rebelled against God. This is also patently obvious from the crossing of the Jordan as defined in Joshua 3. Before they crossed the Jordan they are standing in the territory promised to Abraham's descendants in Genesis 15, but this territory isn't Canaan. Also, Moses was told here to go up on Mount Nebo and look across into Canaan:

Quote

Deu 32:49  "Go up this mountain of the Abarim, Mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, across from Jericho; view the land of Canaan, which I give to the children of Israel as a possession; 

So, obviously, the promise in Canaan of Genesis 17 has been fulfilled and is still being fulfilled today. The promise of a massive state does not yet seem to have come to pass.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Steve_S said:

You are confusing the promise here with the promise given in 17. What does verse 18 say?

The land delineated in genesis 15 is *massive.* It goes from modern day Cairo to Bahdad Iraq. The nile starts in Egypt and the Euphrates runs all the way through Turkey, Syria, and Iraq. That's a lot bigger than the land of Canaan.

Genesis 17 deals *specifically* with the promise of the land of Canaan:

So what is the land of Canaan? Thankfully, God tells us exactly what He meant when he said that Abraham's descendants through isaac would get Canaan as an everlasting possession:

Now, if the border for Canaan ends at the Jordan, then it cannot go to the euphrates. This would be a geographic impossibility. So when God brought Israel into Canaan he gave them a specific delineation of territory. This is a fraction of the property Mentioned in Genesis 15. It seems pretty probable that the land promise in 15 will be totally fulfilled during the Millennial reign, as Robert mentioned earlier. The borders that God delineated for physical Israel, vis-a-vis the land promise of Canaan, though, were defined in Numbers 34. This was expanded under various Israelite rulers and then began contraction as Israel rebelled against God. This is also patently obvious from the crossing of the Jordan as defined in Joshua 3. Before they crossed the Jordan they are standing in the territory promised to Abraham's descendants in Genesis 15, but this territory isn't Canaan. Also, Moses was told here to go up on Mount Nebo and look across into Canaan:

So, obviously, the promise in Canaan of Genesis 17 has been fulfilled and is still being fulfilled today. The promise of a massive state does not yet seem to have come to pass.

What does vs 18 say? The very same truth acts tells you. What Galatians tells you. What Hebrews tells you. To his seed, not him personally. And which seed in particular? Obviously, The 4th generation.......So why are you confusing the covenant made 15 with the covenant made in Genesis 17. On is earthly worldly for a shadow, the other is heavenly and eternal for a reality......

Why are you going to Genesis 17? Why can't you accept what is taught concerning Genesis 15 Steve? TWO COVENANTS STEVE. I am not confusing anything here, you are. The Rabbis did as well. And there are many today following after that crooked generations teachings. So much so that much of the Church cannot Even recognize the priesthood, in either the law of Moses, nor the Gospel. It is rabbinic replacement theology. The apostles never did this......They knew the difference between the two. And they taught on it plenty.