When Michael stands up

[Sister]

7 hours ago, Ezra said:

Sorry Sister, but you are thoroughly confused. No point continuing.

Hi Ezra

What exactly are we arguing over?

I say the Woman in Rev 12 symbolises God's doctrine, his TEACHINGS.  This is what is revealed from HEAVEN, TRUTH. 

It's not a real woman, nor is it Israel that came down from heaven.   This woman has a name and her name is ZION.  She is God's holy city.  If we are dwelling in ZION, we are dwelling spiritually in the City of God where TRUTH comes from. It's a heavenly city, and not of the earth. 

Even though we cannot see this City with our eyes, this city exists, we have faith and believe in the laws that come out of this city because God has given us to see with our understanding from his written Word to us through Christ, therefore we believe his testimony.

 

God likens his teachings to a woman.  He is using a woman as an example.  A woman gives birth and multiplies.  She produces children.  God is creating  children for himself because of his TRUTH poured down from heaven.  Truth produces children.  If we love truth, we will seek God and he will draw us to Christ.   We will become children of the light because we are walking in that light. 

Satan has a woman also symbolically, his woman is the harlot, she also produces children whom she has reared with lies and cares for this world, taking God out of the picture of mens hearts.  So it's all symbolic.

Without TRUTH, God cannot be glorified.  Without TRUTH, we would not come to Jesus. 

Israel is not that truth that gives light to the world, they are not heavenly, but they are in God's plans.  The 12 tribes have a place in the millennial kingdom, and all the gentiles will have to go through them because they will be given the same LIGHT, that comes out of God's holy City.

Now if the Woman went through labour pangs before delivering her child, then she was being hunted and persecuted because the devil knew she was going to give the LIGHT soon, and he did everything in his power to stop it, but God prevailed.

Zion the Woman will go through extreme labour pangs again in the end times.  TRIBULATION, PERSECUTION.  Once it is over she will give birth to all her children at once in the RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS. This is when the saints finaly "inherit" the City of God that they trusted in. Not just that piece of land in Jerusalem, but everything that belongs to the Father, of heaven and earth.....All belongs to the saints now and they will be the rightful owners as they will reign with Christ, Jerusalem will be their NATION to organise.  Israel will be taught and dwelling there "under" Christ and the saints.  The nations have to come through Israel now to seek God, because they are being FED by those who have already claimed their inheritance.

The crown on the Woman's head is the twelve tribes of Israel.  It shows us that when this Woman was ready to give us the LIGHT through CHRIST, her teachings are from THE SAME GOD OF ISRAEL, That same God that Israel worshiped in the past.

I'm sorry you think I'm confused.  I just find it sad that no one can see this.  Nobody knows who this woman is.  I cannot reveal to you, but at least you can have a think about it and ask God to show you.

 

Isaiah 66:8   Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
 

 

 

[Montana Marv]

The Woman of Rev 12:1,2 reverts back to Joseph in Gen 37:9 - Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers.  Listen he said;  I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.

So this Woman of Rev 12 is none other but the nation of Israel, because it includes the Father (Jacob/Israel), Mother and the 12 Sons/Tribes/Stars.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, ghtan said:

LOL. You have problems with Israel symbolised as a heavenly woman and yet you have no problem with the woman being a mysterious Shekinah whom you term as the feminine of God?! Seems like you have one standard for yourself and another for others. 

God made man in his image, male AND female. Your "standard" is the standard Gentile doctrine, which long ago erased the Hebraic roots of the faith wherever it could. So you are half blind; as are the Jews, who reject Gentile Christian doctrine.

What does Paul tell us? "Jerusalem above is the mother of us all." Gal. 4:26 "...the heavenly Jerusalem..." Heb. 12:22 This is another face/manifestation of the Divine Female, just as the Father and Son are faces/manifestations of the Divine Male.

Clearly these are concepts which you have never seriously studied out.

12 hours ago, ghtan said:

Besides, I did point out that this is a common view. Which means MANY find it intuitive enough. How many share your Shekinah explanation? I have not heard of it myself. Can't be more intuitive, can it then?

So true doctrine in your view is a matter of democracy? That is a large part of the reason why the Church is in such a mess, that view.

12 hours ago, ghtan said:

As for John including things that happened in the recent past in his revelation of the end days, it is not a problem. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that his dream was about the future (Dan 2:45) yet the first part of the image depict Nebuchadnezzar himself. Same with Dan 7.

You are equating apples with oranges. Nothing from Rev. 4:1 onward has any mention that the events were past -- quite the contrary; whereas Dan. 2 specifically says the vision did concern the present (but not the past). So you adding to the Word your presumption without any scriptural witness, always a bad decision.

 

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

...the light never came until the Word of God came down and dwelt with man.  No man had the light before this, the whole truth, and all of God's commandments in full.

Rev. 12:1 ...a Woman clothed with the sun... 1:13 ...one like the Son of Man... 16 his countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom. 13:12 ...let us put on the armor of light. ...14 ... put on the Lord Jesus Christ...

The Woman is clothed with the light of Christ;

having upon her head a crown of 12 stars of Apostolic authority (heavenly crowns only being granted to the Church, as with the 24 elders before the throne in Rev. 4ff.; something never said of blood-Israel);

and having the moon, symbol of Mosaic/Israelite law, under her feet.

She is not, Marv, standing upon Rachel and/or Leah, clothed with Jacob/Israel having the light of the sun, and crowned with Israel's 12 sons. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. That is, unless all of those above were already redeemed by Christ's blood at the time this vision is fulfilled -- in which case, once again, the son of the woman could not have been Jesus. You can't have it both ways: her son cannot be Jesus.

[ghtan]

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

God made man in his image, male AND female. Your "standard" is the standard Gentile doctrine, which long ago erased the Hebraic roots of the faith wherever it could. So you are half blind; as are the Jews, who reject Gentile Christian doctrine.

What does Paul tell us? "Jerusalem above is the mother of us all." Gal. 4:26 "...the heavenly Jerusalem..." Heb. 12:22 This is another face/manifestation of the Divine Female, just as the Father and Son are faces/manifestations of the Divine Male.

Clearly these are concepts which you have never seriously studied out.

So true doctrine in your view is a matter of democracy? That is a large part of the reason why the Church is in such a mess, that view.

You are equating apples with oranges. Nothing from Rev. 4:1 onward has any mention that the events were past -- quite the contrary; whereas Dan. 2 specifically says the vision did concern the present (but not the past). So you adding to the Word your presumption without any scriptural witness, always a bad decision.

 

I still do not see any scriptural support for your Shekinah explanation. Not surprising if the truth is that there isn't any. What I do see is that a few others on this thread also recognise that the woman is probably Israel. Proves it IS intuitive. Good enough for me. Where in Dan 2 does it say the dream was about the present? Are you adding to scripture?

[WilliamL]

On 6/1/2016 at 7:46 PM, ghtan said:

 Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that his dream was about the future (Dan 2:45) yet the first part of the image depicts Nebuchadnezzar himself.

 

13 hours ago, ghtan said:

Where in Dan 2 does it say the dream was about the present? Are you adding to scripture?

If you can't even agree with yourself, I don't suppose there is any reason to continue this conversation.

[Sister]

On 02/06/2016 at 1:48 PM, Ezra said:

Sorry Sister, but you are thoroughly confused. No point continuing.

Jeremiah 50:12   Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.
 

[Theophilia05151]

On 6/1/2016 at 9:29 AM, Sister said:

Ok, thanks.  What Zodiac was that?

I don't think anyone answered you or angels. I am just passing along the information to which this other person kept referring...I do NOT espouse the view of the site posted here - http://watchfortheday.org/micah.html

[Theophilia05151]

Quoted text here:

n September 23, 2017 a sign forms in the heavens that fits the requirements of Revelation 12.  As far as can be determined from computer models, this is the only time this sign will occur in history. Therefore, this would literally be the Great Sign of Revelation that is to appear in heaven. The woman in heaven is Virgo–the Virgin. The sun is the sun “clothing Virgo” and the moon is actually under her feet. The garland of twelve stars are the nine stars of Leo with three wandering stars that have been situated within Leo at this time to make twelve. Those wandering stars are: Mercury, Mars, and Venus. The last element of the sign is that the Virgin must be with child. The planet or star of the Messiah is Jupiter. Jupiter at this time is in the womb of Virgo.  Again, no replication of this sign has yet to be found. 

The problem with this sign is that all to often it is taken only as a symbol for what it represents and is not considered an actual sign placed in the heavens by God. The sign represents the birth of Messiah from the virgin of Israel, but it is to be taken as an actual sign to be seen and thereby understand the time at which a significant event occurs. The problem then is to determine where it occurs within the timeline of the end of days. That is, where does it occur in relation to the 70th Week of Daniel–the final period of seven years before Messiah comes to rule the planet. The solution lies within Micah 5.

In Micah 5 the timeline of the Messiah is given. First he will be born in Bethlehem and he is to be known as the one who will be ruler in Israel. When Jesus came he presented himself as the Prince on Palm Sunday, but then he was later crucified that week on  Passover. He did not become a world ruler from Jerusalem at that time. Micah then says that Messiah will give them up “until the time that she who is in labor has given birth.” Forty days after the resurrection, Jesus ascended into heaven and ten days later the Church began and continues to this day. According to Micah, Israel’s remnant will return to the children of Israel only after she has given birth. 

The sign of Revelation 12 is the sign that marks this time. It marks the transition from the Church to Daniel’s 70th Week. This sign appears in the heavens just two days after the Feast of Trumpets and likely the Rapture of the Church in 2017.  All the qualifiers are there from September 23-25, 2017 for this sign, which comes 1,260 days after the first tetrad of April 15, 2014. However, the woman must give birth and Jupiter remains in the womb a few more weeks when it will then emerge. On November 13, 2017, Jupiter emerges and is joined in conjunction with Venus. This day also comes 444 days after their previous conjunction on August 27, 2016 that marks Jupiter’s entry into Virgo. 

If November 13, 2017 marks the beginning of the significant spiritual return of Israel, then six days later marks what appears to be the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel. This is done by counting 2,520 (7 x 360) days back from the Day of Atonement 2024. Now most prophecy students believe Israel signs the covenant with the Antichrist to begin the 70th Week per their understanding of Daniel 9:27. This author instead believes that this is Israel’s Covenant with God, which is strengthened by God himself showing the Israelis that all is back on track. During the transition from the Rapture to the beginning of the 2,520 days would be sixty days and it is believed within that time there is the fulfillment of Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39. Only God rescues Israel from the war and Israel is said to recognize that fact. 

With the Rapture occurring on the Feast of Trumpets and this war coming from the north, it should be clear to many Jews what just occurred. With an understanding of the Old Testament, it should be clear. Of course, that is why it is there. Paul speaks of the Gentiles provoking the Jews to jealousy. If there were a time to be jealous, to see a sizable segment of Gentiles (and some believing Jews) get taken in the Rapture to safety before the coming Day of the Lord would be it. It will mean that many Jews will get on track and believe. With 144,000 Jewish male witnesses found in the book of Revelation, it has been made clear that many in Israel will believe and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom. The seven years begin at a time of Israeli spiritual renewal. This is why Jesus warns Israel of the Antichrist by identifying the time of the Abomination of Desolation, which occurs in the middle of the 70th Week. That is the true moment of identification and time the Antichrist will control the land of Israel.

One roadblock in understanding the sign of Revelation 12 is by not understanding the layout of the book of Revelation. Chapter 11 takes the reader to the end of the seven years at the seventh trumpet when the earth fully becomes under Jesus Christ our Lord. Chapter 12 begins further detail on this coming time and starts back at the beginning. We therefore begin at this sign that represents Israel and the bringing forth of the Messiah. But the point is that this is a heavenly sign placed in heaven to show us when these things will begin. That is, the continuation of the salvation story through the nation of Israel. 

Therefore, the sign of Micah 5 and Revelation 12 is an actual sign in the heavens that can be documented and it is yet future. It marks the time at which a true return of Israel will occur. It is not an accident that it comes right after the Feast of Trumpets–the time of the last Trump for the Church. This then means (along with everything else documented here on this site) that time is short for the Church. Will believers pay attention and do what must be done and make sure that they are sharing the gospel? The doors to the Church are still open for those who might believe in our Savior Jesus Christ. Only by believing and putting our trust in Christ will we escape what is soon coming upon the world. It is becoming pretty apparent what is soon coming. If one does not believe until after the Rapture, God’s grace will be sufficient, but it will not be without many perilous trials. - See more at: http://watchfortheday.org/micah.html#sthash.j5FAJ3OE.dpuf

[ghtan]

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

If you can't even agree with yourself, I don't suppose there is any reason to continue this conversation.

Trying to hide that you have no answer? Fully understand.