Is there really a rapture?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I will add onto my previous post to Revelation Man, that the result of the Wheat Harvest is shown in Rev 7:9 as part of the broad overview parallel account within that book of the Seal/Scroll chronology in chapters 4-11 - specifically with the opening of the sixth Seal with its attendant sun/moon/star sign which precedes the Day of the Lord:

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

That these same people, from the detailed portion of the one 'seven' found in the parallel account of chapters 13-16, are first oppressed in the first half of the one 'seven' -

Rev 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 

And to these people, right before the Harvest from the clouds by Jesus of the wheat, comes an Angel to fulfill Jesus' Words in Mt 24:14 - 

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

Indeed, Jesus' purpose IAW Isaiah 49:6 is to the whole world as is set up in the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology -

Rev 5:9 " Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

These people, from EVERY nation, tribe, language, and people - which includes everyone, both Jew and Gentile, can be found in the Harvest of the "Living" - those who have eternal life through Jesus.

Nowhere can you find an exclusively Jewish harvest.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 minute ago, Revelation Man said:

The Tares can not be gathered first of we go to meet Jesus first. That is just a fact.

They are not gathered.  They are collected.  Different verb.  Different action.  Different result.

The tares are collected first, and then the wheat is taken to the barn of Heaven.

[Revelation Man]

6 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I will add onto my previous post to Revelation Man, that the result of the Wheat Harvest is shown in Rev 7:9 as part of the broad overview parallel account within that book of the Seal/Scroll chronology in chapters 4-11 - specifically with the opening of the sixth Seal with its attendant sun/moon/star sign which precedes the Day of the Lord:

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
" Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

That these same people, from the detailed portion of the one 'seven' found in the parallel account of chapters 13-16, are first oppressed in the first half of the one 'seven' -

Rev 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 

And to these people, right before the Harvest from the clouds by Jesus of the wheat, comes an Angel to fulfill Jesus' Words in Mt 24:14 - 

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

Indeed, Jesus' purpose IAW Isaiah 49:6 is to the whole world as is set up in the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology -

Rev 5:9 " Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

These people, from EVERY nation, tribe, language, and people - which includes everyone, both Jew and Gentile, can be found in the Harvest of the "Living" - those who have eternal life through Jesus.

Nowhere can you find an exclusively Jewish harvest.

The Church is Raptured to Heaven, so of course Rev. 5:9 is out of every nation, tongue etc. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened. Christians who become Christians after the Rapture will be the Saints that Satan overcomes.

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

56 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened. Christians who become Christians after the Rapture will be the Saints that Satan overcomes.

I disagree.

There is no evidence of the Church already being in Heaven when John is taken up and reports upon everything he sees in chapters 4 and 5.

The Great Multitude, who do the same as the Church - and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb - are presented in Heaven only after the sixth Seal is opened with its sun/moon/star event as Jesus said would happen in Mt 24:29 - and then He comes Mt 24:30 on the clouds - and the Elect - which is synonymous with the Church in the NT - is gathered up in Mt 24:31.

To buttress that reading and not do a simple 'this means that' exegesis (like saying Israel is the wheat) - none less an expert than a Elder tells John that the Great Multitude comes out of the Great Tribulation - and Jesus said Mt 24:29-31 comes immediately after the Great Tribulation's days.

Only Pre-Trib has to make up a whole new category of saved people to substitute for us with Matthew's use of "Elect" in the Olivet Discourse.  Again, every use of eklektos as referring to people, means to point to those who believe in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.  This does not relegate the Elect to just the Jews, because by the time the Gospels were written, the Apostles had learned that God allowed the Holy Spirit to be poured out upon the Gentiles as well at Antioch.  Hence, we see the earliest church use the word eklektos as representative of the marriage of Jew and Gentile who believe in Jesus.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I disagree.

There is no evidence of the Church already being in Heaven when John is taken up and reports upon everything he sees in chapters 4 and 5.

The Great Multitude, who do the same as the Church - and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb - are presented in Heaven only after the sixth Seal is opened with its sun/moon/star event as Jesus said would happen in Mt 24:29 - and then He comes Mt 24:30 on the clouds - and the Elect - which is synonymous with the Church in the NT - is gathered up in Mt 24:31.

To buttress that reading and not do a simple 'this means that' exegesis (like saying Israel is the wheat) - none less an expert than a Elder tells John that the Great Multitude comes out of the Great Tribulation - and Jesus said Mt 24:29-31 comes immediately after the Great Tribulation's days.

Only Pre-Trib has to make up a whole new category of saved people to substitute for us with Matthew's use of "Elect" in the Olivet Discourse.  Again, every use of eklektos as referring to people, means to point to those who believe in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.  This does not relegate the Elect to just the Jews, because by the time the Gospels were written, the Apostles had learned that God allowed the Holy Spirit to be poured out upon the Gentiles as well at Antioch.  Hence, we see the earliest church use the word eklektos as representative of the marriage of Jew and Gentile who believe in Jesus.

We the Church are with Jesus when he returns, as Rev. 19 says. So your Matthew 24 reference only means we the Saints come back with Jesus. I think you have Rev. 4 and 5 confused with 5 an 6 don't you ? The First seal is not opened until the Sixth chapter. The Six Seal is not the rapture, the Rapture happens before Daniels 70th Week begins. John is in Heaven and crying because NO MAN was found worthy to open the Seals.

^{Rev. 5:3} And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. ⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 

Also, you do know that the Revelation is not in anyway in chronological order right ? there is about 10 chapters that all all run concurrently in Revelation. Many chapters end at about the same time. Anyone that Reads Rev. 19 has to see the Church in Heaven marrying the Lamb, then coming back with Jesus, it isn't even debatable. 

Revelation chapter six is the Seals so it is not ending right before the return of Christ with us Saints in Revelation 19. The end of each of these chapters I point out below ends close to Jesus' return, like chapter 12, we know it starts at around the birth of Israel/birth of Christ but it ends with Satan chasing Israel into the wilderness in the 42 month period and her being protected 42 months, which puts the end of the chapter right at Jesus' return.

1. Revelation chapter 7 ends with the Saints that died in the Tribulation standing before the throne of God.
2. Rev. 9 has the Armies of Armageddon/200 thousand, thousand.
3. Rev. 10 is John eating the the book which had the uttering's of the seven thunders, in 7:7 it says when he begins to sound, the mystery of God will be finished.
4. In Revelation 11 the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. The end of the 1260 will be the close to the end.
5. In Revelation chapter 12 I have already explained, it ends with Israel in the Wilderness
6. Rev. 13 speaks of the Beast and his 42 months. This will be the end no doubt.
7. Rev. 14 has Jesus and the 144,000 and ends with the angel thrusting the sickle into the earth to harvest the harvest.
8. Rev. 15 is the Seven Last Plagues.  
9. Rev. 16 is the Seven Vials of Gods wrath.
9. Rev. 17 is the Great Harlot being Judged of God. 
10. Rev. 18 is the World (Babylon) being judged by God.

Then in Revelation 19 we see the Saints who were raptured coming back with Jesus on white horses. So much of the book of Revelation is happening at the same time.

All of those chapters are happening concurrently.

The Great Tribulation is confused as only the seven year period, which it is not, the great tribulation is all of the tests and trials we go through in everyday life, since Jesus died, proof of this is in Matthew 24, if you read it in proper context.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The great tribulation is the trials of this world that all go through, Satan tempts us all and many Saints were killed for Christ Jesus' name. He that endures is speaking of Christians that maintain their walk of faith until death and do not go astray. But the end doesn't come until the Gospel has been preached unto all the world, which Jesus says in Matthew 14, after speaking about the trial and troubles or Tribulation of the Saints and Church for many years before the END CAME. Then comes the end..........

 

Mathew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This great tribulation will be far greater than all tribulation before it, the worst ever, but all 2000 years since Jesus death is still the great tribulation. All of the Saints in heaven come out of the great tribulation. This is where people get confused imho, the rely on singular verses way to often. And just skip other verses or chapters. Rev. 19 proves the church is in heaven, marrying the Lamb and proves we come back with Jesus Christ on white horses. If Christians have been dying for Jesus for 2000 years, being martyred while spreading the gospel and fighting Satan for 2000 years, why would we all not have fought the good fight and helped defeat Satan ? 

 

The Elect is Israel and those who chose to become Christians after the Rapture. Are they not elect ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

We the Church are with Jesus when he returns, as Rev. 19 says. 

I disagree.  The Church can be heard in Rev 19:1 as saying:
" Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2 because His judgments are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE has avenged the blood of His bond- servants on her." 3 And a second time they said, " Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever."

The Commander of God's Army does not take His Bride to battle.
The 144,000 never leave the Lamb's side.
The Lord does not need billions to take on hundreds of millions.  He imbued Gideon to take on over 100,000 with only 300.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

So your Matthew 24 reference only means we the Saints come back with Jesus.

I disagree.

We, the Church, those who believe in Jesus and wash our robes white in His Blood -  are the Elect, as eklektos is used in every other reference to a people in the New Testament!

MT 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." 
LK 18: 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?
ROM 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? 
RO 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, 
COL 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people 
2TI 2:10 for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, 
1PE 1:1 To God's elect, strangers in the world, 
1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, 
2JN 1:1 To the chosen lady and her children, 
2JN 1:13 The children of your chosen sister send their greetings 
REV 17:14 -and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."  - NIV

EVERY TIME eklektos is used for a people in the New Testament, it refers to believers - not Israelis.  
The ONLY reason you change the word's meaning here is to keep your own Pre-Trib eschatology intact and not have it fall apart on an internal inconsistency.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 I think you have Rev. 4 and 5 confused with 5 an 6 don't you ? The First seal is not opened until the Sixth chapter. The Six Seal is not the rapture, the Rapture happens before Daniels 70th Week begins.

No.  Chapters 4 and 5 set the stage for the Seal/Scroll chronology.  John describes everything and everyone he sees, and there is no body equal to the billions which encompass the Church for 2000 years and even that number is supplemented by true believers before Jesus like Daniel.

The sixth Seal includes the sun/moon/star event which according to Joel 2:31, precedes the Day of the Lord.
"The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

The sixth Seal also reveals what I think is the sign of the Son of Man - the scrolling of the sky.  This happens first - and THEN Jesus comes.

The sixth Seal also includes the Firstfruits - who are also mentioned in the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 as coming before the Harvest.

The sixth Seal then has John seeing the Great Multitude for the first time - and the quality they possess, freedom from sin, they get from Jesus - just as we do!  They are us.  And no less than an Elder says exactly what Jesus says in the Olivet Discourse where He said the gathering of the Elect comes after the days of the Great Tribulation - which are cut short (not 2000 years long) - that the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation.

You say "the Rapture happens before Daniels 70th Week begins".  The Bible does not say that.  That is your conclusion, so as an apriori decision, you reject any interpretation contrary to your belief.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 John is in Heaven and crying because NO MAN was found worthy to open the Seals.

No, the word is oudeis - that is a pronoun.  It does not say no MAN - which is a noun - could be found.  oudeis means no one.   As such, no one (anyone) could be found.

If you want to say no MAN could be found - then where is your church as no MEN are yet in Heaven?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

All of those chapters are happening concurrently.

Not really, not in my opinion at least.

The book of Revelation is written using parallel accounts.
Within each account there is linear narratives which tell a story in sequence fashion: this happens, then this happens, and so on.

The accounts have overlapping time frames, but they do not all have the same time frame.

So yes, I know about the book of Revelation.