Is there really a rapture?

[Ezra]

On 9/10/2016 at 10:46 AM, missmuffet said:

All of the best teachers that I know teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

One has to wonder then why some are so bitterly opposed to it, especially when the Bible teaches that the Rapture is imminent.

[HAZARD]

7 minutes ago, Ezra said:

One has to wonder then why some are so bitterly opposed to it, especially when the Bible teaches that the Rapture is imminent.

Personally, although we don't know when it will occur, I hope it happens in my lifetime

[missmuffet]

29 minutes ago, Ezra said:

One has to wonder then why some are so bitterly opposed to it, especially when the Bible teaches that the Rapture is imminent.

I think if someone read the Bible in a literal sense that there is no other interpretation than pretribulation. It is obvious unless someone is giving the words of the Bible their own words.

[Sister]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

One has to wonder then why some are so bitterly opposed to it, especially when the Bible teaches that the Rapture is imminent.

Maybe some don't want others to be on that bus when the bus driver is driving, or on a that plane when the pilot is taken, or giving birth when the midwife disappears, or on that freeway when the driver disappears, and maybe on that boat when the skipper vanishes.  I feel so sorry for the guy on the cherry picker when his machinist has vanished into thin air, or the person being operated on when his doctor disappears?

Your rapture is going to cause a major world wide catastrophe before the catastrophe's even begin. It's not spoken about, it's not even hinted on.  Like it or not you and I and everyone whether Christian or not are going to be tried, and those of us who will be persecuted for the Word's sake, who refuse the Mark of the Beast will be living proof that we finally came out of Babylon, and did not care for our lives but chose to save our souls instead, and like it or not, all the hypocrites are going to be put on one side, and the true on the other, then we will see who can make it to the finish line, and truly be called "saved".

Edited September 12, 2016 by Sister
spelling

[OakWood]

On 22/06/2016 at 5:26 PM, Ezra said:

Why would a Bible doctrine be a product of American Christianity?  Evidently you need to research this for yourself from Scripture, not give heed to propaganda against a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The Rapture is a key Christian doctrine.

"As it was in the days of Noah" is an allusion to how people will be completely oblivious to impending judgement (which is true right now).  As to who is taken and who is left, Noah was "taken" out of the flood waters while within the Ark, and the evil-doers were left behind. Lot was forcibly taken out of Sodom, and the evildoers were left-behind. Enoch was translated from earth to Heaven, and he typifies the Church.

The pre-Trib rapture is false doctrine. Throughout Biblical history the righteous have always escaped God's judgement. The Tribulation is not God's judgement, it is the wrath of the antiChrist. Anybody who believes that the Great Tribulation is God's judgement has to ask themselves why God is punishing the righteous by not allowing them to buy and sell and by having them beheaded. God is not in the business of persecuting those who believe and trust in him.

The wrath of God comes after the Tribulation (or towards the end of it) when God sends plagues to torment the wicked and finally defeats the AntiChrist in battle. The righteous will escape this time by being raptured.

No matter how many times this is explained to pre-Tribbers they can't seem to grasp this simple logic. It's as if they can't tell the difference between an act of God and an act of evil. Noah escaped God's judgement, Lot escaped God's judgement and Christians today will escape God's judgement, but they won't necessarily escape being persecuted by evil ones.

Jesus even tells us that we will face great trials and persecutions but pre-Tribbers seem to think that scripture doesn't apply to them, as if they are a special case. Christians have been persecuted throughout history, they are being persecuted today (ISIS)and they will be persecuted in the future by the Beast. But pre-Tribbers think that they are an exception to everything told to us in scripture.

The Bible does not read pre-Trib. If you had never heard of the rapture and you were to read the Bible for yourself for the very first time, you would conclude that Christians suffer during a Great Tribulation. You would never come to the conclusion that Jesus comes to rescue his people, disappears and then comes back again for a third coming. The only way anybody could ever come to the conclusion that there is a pre-Trib rapture is if you had the idea put into your head in the first place. Unfortunately this propaganda has been placed into the heads of a number of Christians by false prophets and many Christians have grown-up believing in it. So desperately do they want to believe in it that they will even cherry-pick scripture to support it or read into scripture things that are simply not there.

By hopefully waiting around for a rapture to come instead of preparing themselves for the terrible times to come, they are pinning their hopes on a false expectation. I've heard pre-Tribbers talk about the rapture for years, anticipating its arrival - but they're still here and they haven't gone anywhere.

[missmuffet]

3 minutes ago, OakWood said:

The pre-Trib rapture is false doctrine. Throughout Biblical history the righteous have always escaped God's judgement. The Tribulation is not God's judgement, it is the wrath of the antiChrist. Anybody who believes that the Great Tribulation is God's judgement has to ask themselves why God is punishing the righteous by not allowing them to buy and sell and by having them beheaded. God is not in the business of persecuting those who believe and trust in him.

The wrath of God comes after the Tribulation (or towards the end of it) when God sends plagues to torment the wicked and finally defeats the AntiChrist in battle. The righteous will escape this time by being raptured.

No matter how many times this is explained to pre-Tribbers they can't seem to grasp this simple logic. It's as if they can't tell the difference between an act of God and an act of evil. Noah escaped God's judgement, Lot escaped God's judgement and Christians today will escape God's judgement, but they won't necessarily escape being persecuted by evil ones.

Jesus even tells us that we will face great trials and persecutions but pre-Tribbers seem to think that scripture doesn't apply to them, as if they are a special case. Christians have been persecuted throughout history, they are being persecuted today (ISIS)and they will be persecuted in the future by the Beast. But pre-Tribbers think that they are an exception to everything told to us in scripture.

The Bible does not read pre-Trib. If you had never heard of the rapture and you were to read the Bible for yourself for the very first time, you would conclude that Christians suffer during a Great Tribulation. You would never come to the conclusion that Jesus comes to rescue his people, disappears and then comes back again for a third coming. The only way anybody could ever come to the conclusion that there is a pre-Trib rapture is if you had the idea put into your head in the first place. Unfortunately this propaganda has been placed into the heads of a number of Christians by false prophets and many Christians have grown-up believing in it. So desperately do they want to believe in it that they will even cherry-pick scripture to support it or read into scripture things that are simply not there.

By hopefully waiting around for a rapture to come instead of preparing themselves for the terrible times to come, they are pinning their hopes on a false expectation. I've heard pre-Tribbers talk about the rapture for years, anticipating its arrival - but they're still here and they haven't gone anywhere.

Hi Oak. No the pretribulation interpretation is not a false doctrine. Read the Bible literally how God has intended the Bible to be read and you will not miss it.

[OakWood]

4 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Hi Oak. No the pretribulation interpretation is not a false doctrine. Read the Bible literally how God has intended the Bible to be read and you will not miss it.

I've read it and I have missed it because it's not there. I've even explained why it's not so. But of course you've ignored that and addressed none of the points that I raised. Perhaps if you were to go through my points one by one and try to refute them, then you will see the error of your ways.

The pre-Trib rapture didn't even exist for nearly two thousand years of Church history but then because of a supposed dream by a teenage girl, and the interpretations of that dream by such false prophets as John Darby the pre-Trib theory gained momentum and became fashionable among some churches. It has been propagandized ever since.

But it's not scriptural and it adds to scripture things that are not there. It doesn't make sense either. Millions of Christians vanishing into thin air will frighten the living daylights out of non-believers left behind. They will realize that the Christians were onto something and they will turn to God out of sheer terror. The AntiChrist would never come to power because nobody would believe a word he said, and everybody would know who he really was. Prophecy therefore would not be fulfilled.

 

[Ezra]

12 minutes ago, OakWood said:

The pre-Trib rapture didn't even exist for nearly two thousand years of Church history...

Actually the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was obscured for nearly 2,000 years (Matt 25:1-13):

1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

[missmuffet]

34 minutes ago, OakWood said:

I've read it and I have missed it because it's not there. I've even explained why it's not so. But of course you've ignored that and addressed none of the points that I raised. Perhaps if you were to go through my points one by one and try to refute them, then you will see the error of your ways.

The pre-Trib rapture didn't even exist for nearly two thousand years of Church history but then because of a supposed dream by a teenage girl, and the interpretations of that dream by such false prophets as John Darby the pre-Trib theory gained momentum and became fashionable among some churches. It has been propagandized ever since.

But it's not scriptural and it adds to scripture things that are not there. It doesn't make sense either. Millions of Christians vanishing into thin air will frighten the living daylights out of non-believers left behind. They will realize that the Christians were onto something and they will turn to God out of sheer terror. The AntiChrist would never come to power because nobody would believe a word he said, and everybody would know who he really was. Prophecy therefore would not be fulfilled.

 

What I have read of the Bible and I have read it through many times I sure do see it. So we have a difference in the interpretation. I am not going to get hostile because I believe in the pretrib rapture and I do not believe that you should as well because you do not believe in the pretrib rapture. We will have to agree to disagree.

[OakWood]

2 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Actually the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was obscured for nearly 2,000 years (Matt 25:1-13):

1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Correct. Nobody knows the day or the hour. That doesn't mean there's going to be a pre-Trib rapture. I can't put a date on when the Ezekiel 38 war will start, I can't give a specific date or time as to when the Man of Perdition will enter the Temple, and likewise I can't tell you when the Great Tribulation will start.

Therefore I haven't got a clue when Jesus will return but that doesn't mean that there's going to be a secret rapture.

And nothing you have said addresses the objections that I raised. You've merely quoted scripture to support your theory of a pre-Trib rapture. I could use the same scripture to support just about any theory that I wished.

Instead of reading scripture and looking at what it really says, you're starting off with a pre-assumption and using scripture to fit that assumption. That's not the way to read the Bible. I became a Christian without any pre-conceived ideas. I'd never even heard of the rapture, and when I read the Book of Revelation for the first time, I saw no pre-Trib rapture in it.

During the Great Tribulation there will be no Church as such. Practising Christian worship openly will probably be illegal (the AntiChrist will not really want any competition). Any churches that do exist will probably be underground. That's basic Common Sense and requires no sophisticated explanation.

But pre-Tribbers have assumed that a rapture has taken place so they use the fact that the Church is not mentioned in scripture as proof of a such a rapture. That's what happens when you put the cart before the horse. You miss the blatantly obvious and twist scripture to fit your own theories.

We are a not a special generation who has special privileges that no Christians before us have had. We're not even worthy of it. We're not fit to lick the sandals of Christian martyrs who came before us. No Christians were raptured when Nero threw them to the lions. No Christians were raptured during the Armenian genocide, and no Christians are being raptured today when ISIS decides to torture, rape and murder entire Christian communities. The only time the righteous (as a group) have being given a supernatural form of escape is when God is dishing out justice on the wicked. Then and only then has the Lord provided a way out because he does not want his wrath to come upon the heads of his people.

When God decides to punish the wicked we will be given our rapture so that we can escape the battlefield. But when the AntiChrist starts persecuting those who refuse to take the mark we will be there in the thick of it. The Book of Revelation even tells us that we will be there. Who do you think it is that won't be allowed to buy and sell, and may face beheadings - the Buddhists?