Free Will?

[Trinity]

... ...

If God did not "interfere", we would all be going to hell because we, by our own, are unable to love Him.

Where does it say in the bible on our own we can't love God? Please use scripture...

[Abigailwc]

... ...

If God did not "interfere", we would all be going to hell because we, by our own, are unable to love Him.

Where does it say in the bible on our own we can't love God? Please use scripture...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am talking about unsaved persons:

Romans 3

10As it is written:

"There is none righteous, no, not one;

11There is none who understands;

There is none who seeks after God.

12They have all turned aside;

They have together become unprofitable;

There is none who does good, no, not one."

13"Their throat is an open tomb;

With their tongues they have practiced deceit";

"The poison of asps is under their lips";

14"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."

15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16Destruction and misery are in their ways;

17And the way of peace they have not known."

18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

[Deez131]

WhySoBlind,Mar 15 2005, 02:44 PM]

Yes. In the 9th chapter of Romans, Paul makes it clear that some are chosen for Heaven and some are going to remain in their sin and go to Hell. He says they are "prepared for destruction." Why God chooses to save some and chooses to allow others to be those vessels prepared for destruction, I don't know. I have an "Ask God" list. That question is on it.

[icdchillin1]

Ephesians 1:4-6 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

Edited March 17, 2005 by icdchillin1

[icdchillin1]

Problem Solved!!! Thank you.

Edited March 17, 2005 by icdchillin1

[Khristeeanos]

Sorry all, I read that wrong.  That was to Deez not Shiloh.  Furthermore, I still haven't mastered the BB code yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can still edit your post and change the person's name.

And for each quote tag, there must be a closing tag as well. If you edit your post and remove the [ /quote] at the very end of your post, it should fix the problem.

[craig911]

Yes. In the 9th chapter of Romans, Paul makes it clear that some are chosen for Heaven and some are going to remain in their sin and go to Hell. He says they are "prepared for destruction." Why God chooses to save some and chooses to allow others to be those vessels prepared for destruction, I don't know. I have an "Ask God" list. That question is on it.

[Guest theLAYMAN]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE WILL. STOP FOOLING YOURSELVES.

HERE'S WHY:

1. WE HAVE TWO PATHS THAT HAS BEEN SET BEFORE US LIFE AND DEATH.

2. JOSHUA, THE SON OF NUN, STATED IT BEST, "IF IT SEEMS EVIL UNTO YOU TO SERVE GOD, THEN DON'T DO IT, AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE WE SERVE THE LORD."

3. NOTICE SOMETHING, HE PUT IT OUT THERE AS TWO CHOICES. SERVE GOD OR NOT. THESE ARE CHOICE THEY HAD AVAILABLE TO THEM. THERE WERE NO OTHER OPTIONS THEY COULD CHOOSE.

4. ADAM AND EVE DID NOT HAVE A FREE WILL. THEY COULD EAT OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT OR NOT. THEY HAD THE CHOICE TO OBEY GOD OR NOT. THERE WAS NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES.

5. BY OTHER ALTERNATIVES, THEY COULDN'T TELL GOD THAT THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING ELSE LIKE CHOP DOWN THE TREE SO HE COULDN'T FORCE THEM TO OBEY OR NOT. IF THEY HAD AN ABOSOLUTE FREE WILL, THEY COULD HAVE TRIED SOMETHING LIKE THIS. BUT THINK ABOUT IT, DO YOU THINK GOD WOULD HAVE LET THEM CREATE ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE TO THE ONES HE ALREADY ESTABLISHED? DON'T FOOL YOURSELF. NO.

6. THINK ABOUT YOUR OWN LIFE. DO YOU THINK YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO WHATEVER YOU WILL. NO. DON'T FOOL YOURSELF. THINK ABOUT IT REAL CLOSELY. WHAT IF SOMEONE WANTED TO BE THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD, IF THEY HAD AN ABSOLUTE FREE WILL, THEY COULD ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH THIS. BUT REALITY CLEARLY SHOWS US THAT IT'S NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THIS TO HAPPEN. THERE ARE OTHER SITUATIONS, VARIABLES, CIRCUMSTANCES, PROBLEMS, AND SO ON, THAT INTERFERES WITH A PERSON EXCERSISING TOTAL FREE WILL.

7. WE ALL HAVE CHOICES BUT NO FREE WILL. FOR EXAMPLE, I CAN TELL MYSELF THAT I WILL BECOME A GREAT NUCLEAR SCIENTIST BEFORE I DIE. AS A CHRISTIAN, GOD HAS SOMETHING ELSE HE WANTS ME TO DO. HE WANTS ME TO TEACH. BUT I'M SO INSISTENT ON BECOMING A GREAT NUCLEAR SCIENTIST. ME BECOMING A GREAT NUCLEAR SCIENTIST IS NOT GOD'S WILL FOR MY LIFE. HE DOESN'T WANT OR NEED ME TO FILL THIS ROLE. HE WANTS ME TO TEACH. SO HE FRUSTRATES ALL MY EFFORTS AND CAUSES ME TO FAIL AT BECOMING A NUCLEAR SCIENTIST.

8. I CAN MISTAKENLY BELIEVE THAT I HAVE FREE WILL, BUT BOTTOM LINE IS I DON'T.

9. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS ALWAYS ACTING ON EVERYBODY'S DESCIONS AND THOUGHTS. ALWAYS. IN ORDER TO HAVE A FREE WILL, NOTHING COULD BIAS YOUR DECISIONS AND THOUGHTS. IT'S IMMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE IN THIS WAY.

10. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CHOOSE A CERTAIN COLOR AS YOUR FAVORITE, BECAUSE YOU LIKE IT. IT BECOMES BIASED OVER ALL THE OTHER COLORS YOU COMPARE YOUR FAVORITE COLOR TOO. THE SAME THING WITH A FAVORITE FOOD THAT YOU LIKE. YOU MORE THAN LIKELY WILL CHOOSE IT BECAUSE IT TASTE BETTER TO YOU THAN THE OTHER FOODS THAT YOU COMPARE IT TO. SO YOUR FAVORITE FOOD ACTS ON YOUR DESCION PROCESS AND IT INFLUENCES IT WHENEVER YOU COMPARE IT TO OTHER FOODS.

11. JESUS SAID IT PLAINLY TOO, NO MAN CAN HAVE TWO MASTERS HE WILL LOVE ONE AND HATE THE OTHER.

12. IF WE HAVE ABSOLUTE FREE WILL THEN WHY WOULD WE HAVE A MASTER? WHY WOULD THE BIBLE REFER TO US AS SERVANTS AND SLAVES TO CHRIST? IF WE HAVE FREE WILLS THEN WHY WOULD CHRIST TELL US TO CONFORM OURSELVES TO HIM (OUR WILLS)?

13. THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE DON'T HAVE FREE WILL. DON'T FOOL YOURSELF WE HAVE CHOICES BUT NOT A WILL. WHEN GOD SET UP CONDITIONS FOR OUR LIVES WE CAN ONLY MAKE CHOICES WITHIN THOSE CONDITIONS BUT WE CAN'T OVERRIDE WHAT GOD HAS CALLED US TO BE OR BECOME. WE CAN'T OVERRIDE GOD'S WILL FOR OUR LIVES.

[Ovedya]

Can an iceberg be tipped over by the flick of a finger?

[Deez131]

icdchillin1,

I read your comments on the scriptures I posted. I could post commentaries on what the passages mean, but that would take up pages and pages of room. Instead, I'm going to post a URL for anyone who wants to use it. It is a Bible commentary that is very easy to use. It's broken down into books and very clearly explained. I'm posting it IF I can figure out how to do it.

Matthew Henry's Commentary

You are right; "God is sovereign over man."  As far as the "blasphemy" attack.  That was not cool.  Maybe, he should check out the thread on "blasphemy."

Deez, though I believe I am right about this, whether I am or not makes no difference about how we are to work in this world.  We are still sent out to spread the Gospel, so let us do so as children of God.  This is a truth that even you can testify too.

And I do, although I'm not sure what you mean by "even you." I believe we are supposed to spread the gospel. I also believe that we should spread the gospel according to the Word of God. That is what I am trying to do. It is very important to me to hold to sola scriptura, which is why I'm so passionate about the issues we have been discussing.

For Everyone:  This started out as a discussion and became an argument resulting in an attack.  We have been seperated.  Is this not how it begins?  The enemy seperates us and then attacks.  Why are we arguing this when we all still have the exact same purpose?  This is just a thought.

This CAN be a civil, Biblical discussion. Just read the discussions before the whole blasphemy thing. Attacks are unjustified and unnecessary. I realize these topics are very important to a lot of people. For me, they define God and the salvation He brought about in my life. That's about as high up on the list as you can get in my book. As far as being separated, we don't need to be. We are separated as far as what we believe the Bible to be saying, but as Christian brothers and sisters and showing love and respect, there's no reason for the separation. We should be reasoning from the scriptures, not hurling insults.