sabbath day

[Jaydog1976]

On 10/29/2016 at 1:41 PM, Giller said:

Now here is what the N.I.V says about verse 16.

Colossians 2:16

¹⁶ Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

 

I find that the N.I.V version makes absolutely no sense here.

 

First of all God would never permit us to just celebrate just any religious festival, and here it is talking not about meat and drink ordinances but simply eating and drinking, which is not the context.

 

And thirdly, it talks of the Sabbath day in a singular form, but the King James Version talks of the Sabbath days in a plural form.

 

On the N.I.V side, it would mean that there is no Sabbath day under the new covenant, but on the KJV side, it is dealing with the days of the Sabbath, or the days they held their Sabbaths on under the old covenant, rather than a Sabbath day singular.

 

Ok first off let's make sure that we all understand that Colossians 2:16-19 is almost always taken out of context when it is used. We have to be very careful we don't start making up doctrine or try to fit scripture into the way I think it should be. I wanted to start there because I think this is important. Too many Christians get into this debate as to whether we are to observe the Sabbath let alone what day we should observe it on. 

I used this particular quote for the very reason of my previous paragraph because when you take a verse out of context you can get all sorts of interpretations and ideas that quite honestly are not there. Giller the NIV isn't not wrong here, neither is the KJV. Just too different manuscripts used to say the same thing. I know it is another topic for a another day. I digress so I will move onto the topic at hand. 

So looking at the verse, and yes I will be breaking down for you from the NIV, we must look at the book of Colossians and why it was written. The Colossians at the time of this letter were getting into some heretical teachings. Paul doesn't go into detail about what the teachings were but we can kind of get a glimpse as to what it was. Paul is dealing with ceremonialism, worship of angels and asceticism. Basically put the Colossians were practicing a form of legalism. 

So with this in mind the verse becomes a little more clearer. Paul is not saying that the Sabbath has been done away with. Giller the NIV is not incorrect it what it is saying. All Paul was saying was hey, don't let someone judge you if you, as a believer, regards one day more than another. In this particular translation the NIV just uses the Sabbath day singular because that is what the manuscript that was used in the translation said. However when I read this passage all it is saying is that for whatever Sabbath day is being observed by you as a believer don't let other's judge you for what you are doing. Even if that means you observe every Sabbath day even on the calendar. Quite honestly it doesn't matter how the KJV says it or the NIV says it they both mean the same thing. 

However we cannot stop with verse 16 because it is only half the picture. Verse 17 concludes it and I think it is way to important to miss, "These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. NIV". So whether I set Sunday or Saturday aside for my day of worship to the Lord shouldn't matter because it is a matter of opinion and quite honestly both have merit. I could even set Monday aside for my Sabbath if I so desired. The point is what one person sets aside for a day of worship doesn't mean that someone else is wrong if they set aside another day for worship.

Now the other issue is that people will take this topic way too far and say that the Sabbath is only on Sunday or only on Saturday. We can see from this particular passage of scripture, as well as from others, that this is not the case. While the OT is still very much alive and active and every bit of God's word, the NT fulfills the OT and gives us a better way and that is Christ. That was the whole point of the OT. It was to point us to Christ and to show us that we can't do it on our own. 

I don't have a problem with people having to work on Sundays or Saturdays. I also believe that if a family needs time as a family on the Lord's day, whatever day that might be, that family needs to take that time. So I don't have a problem with families taking vacations, etc. As long as they are spending time with the Lord together as a family that is good. What I do have a problem is when selfish desires(golf, football games, yard work, etc) are more important then setting an hour or two out on a weekend and go fellowship with other believers. 

[Remnantrob]

 

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Rusty angel,

I've witnessed the truth to my aunt, 7 th day Adventist, and I still love her and we're have had some intense debates but she's still blinded by deceit so all I can do is pray for her. 

People who are not ready to change will not change, no matter how many times the Truth has been given but... one day... There is still hope and it's in Christ, amen.?

 

Is that a judgement or just an observation?  lol  Her being a 7th day Adventist doesn't automatically make her blind by deceit....just saying...

[Remnantrob]

15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

You need to show that the Sabbath day is required under the New Covenant.

Under the Old Covenant, What did the people promise?

To keep the law of God in their own strength. Exodus 19:5-8

 

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⁵ Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

⁶ And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

⁷ And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.

⁸ And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto theLord.

 

 

Under the New Covenant what does God promise to do?

Jeremiah 31:31-33

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³¹ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

³² Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

³³ But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

The new covenant is an arrangement for bringing man again into harmony with the divine will, and placing him where he can keep God's law(10 commandments).  Its "better promises"(Heb.8:6) bring forgiveness of sins, grace to renew the heart, and power to obey the law of God.  The dissolution of the old covenant and the making of the new in no wise abrogated the law of God.

Where was the law of God written under the Old Covenant?

Deut. 10:3,4

 

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And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.

⁴ And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the Lord spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me.

 

Where was the law of God written under the New Covenant?

See Jer. 31:33 I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts.

 

Therefore if the same law written on the table of stones is written on the heart of God's people today then the Sabbath required back then is still required today.

What reason is given  for making the new covenant? Hebrews 8:7,8

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⁷ For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

⁸ For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

 

The chief fault in connection with the old covenant lay with the people.  They were not able, in themselves, to fulfil their part of it and it provided them no help for so doing.  There was no Christ in it.  It was of works and not of grace.  I was valuable only as a means of impressing upon them their sinfulness and their need of divine aid.  Same law in both covenants except now God does the work in you to keep the law including the command to keep the 7th day sabbath.

 

[Remnantrob]

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

So what do think the consequences will be for Christians who do not keep the Sabbath day?

I suspect that the Christians will receive the same consequences they would if they knowingly and willingly choose to do things outside of God's will for his people.  Matthew 7:21

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Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

James 4:17

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Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

There are many who do not know and I believe God is merciful to these people.  Acts 17:30

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³⁰ And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

But there comes a time when faith has to be more than hearing the word of God. James 1:22

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But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But of course judgment is left to God.

[Guest shiloh357]

22 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

I suspect that the Christians will receive the same consequences they would if they knowingly and willingly choose to do things outside of God's will for his people.  Matthew 7:21

So it's your contention that Sabbath keeping is required for salvation?   Can you really defend that line of argumentation?

 

[Guest shiloh357]

32 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

 

 

Under the New Covenant what does God promise to do?

Jeremiah 31:31-33

The new covenant is an arrangement for bringing man again into harmony with the divine will, and placing him where he can keep God's law(10 commandments).  Its "better promises"(Heb.8:6) bring forgiveness of sins, grace to renew the heart, and power to obey the law of God.  The dissolution of the old covenant and the making of the new in no wise abrogated the law of God.

 

 

 

It is a mistake to assume that “new covenant” in this passage is referring to what Christians often think of when they hear the phrase, “new covenant.”   Note that God said that He is making “A” new covenant with Israel and Judah.  This is not THE New Covenant” referenced by Jesus at the Last Supper. The New Covenant that we are under isn’t between God and man; it is between the Father and Jesus. So, they are two different covenants.

The context of Jeremiah 31 is eschatological, not soteriological and speaks of the permanent and literal restoration of Israel back to her biblical homeland. This can be seen in Jer. 31: 4-5, 8-13, 16-17, 21-24, 27-28, 35-37.   The context is such that it cannot be applied to the return from Babylon, as it was Judah that returned from Babylon, not Israel.  In Jeremiah’s day, Israel and Judah were still divided kingdoms, and so we need to keep that in mind when see them referenced in Jeremiah.  Having said that, we see references to Judah and Israel in 31, particularly in connection to the name, “Jacob” which is a reference to all 12 tribes (31:7, 11).

This “new covenant” needs to be seen in the light of a new thing (31:22) God is doing, namely the restoration of His covenant people back to their covenant land.  That is what this “new covenant” in Jeremiah has in view.  It is when this happens, that they will experience the new spiritual elements of this new covenant as referred to in 31:33-34.  So the “new covenant” in Jeremiah has not been entirely fulfilled up to this point.

But what about the fact that this passage is quoted in Heb. 8:8-13? Doesn’t that mean that we should understand this as referring to the New Covenant cut in Jesus blood?  This is a parallel application that the writer of Hebrews is using to make a didactic point about the superiority of the New Covenant to the Old Covenant.  The writer of Hebrews is not saying that what Jesus did on the cross in making the New Covenant in His blood is what Jeremiah prophesied about.  He is making a comparison between  the need for a new covenant for Israel and Judah because of the stubborn disobedience of Israel and Judah and the need for the New Covenant of salvation because of the stubborn disobedience and hopelessly lost estate of all mankind.  The “new covenant”  of Jer. 31:33-34 is not salvific; thus, is not a redemptive covenant.  The “new covenant” of Jer. 31:33-34 pertains to service/obedience, and not salvation.  It is worth noting that the OT prophets would never have seen this in the light of a Church age application because the “Church” was not ever prophesied  of in the OT.   The Church age was a mystery revealed by the apostles, and was not seen by the prophets.  So to argue that Jeremiah has the Church in view would, in my opinion, be incorrect, hermeneutically.

 

            So when we discuss the “new” elements of this prophecy of a “new covenant,” it is important to keep in mind that this is the context of a renewed or restored Israel/Judah.  That is important when discussing what is “new” about this new covenant.

[coheir]

Acts 15

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

[Remnantrob]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

So it's your contention that Sabbath keeping is required for salvation?   Can you really defend that line of argumentation?

 

What I am asserting is that a Christian does not keep the law of God in order to be saved but because he is saved. It just so happens that the Sabbath is a part of that law.  I would never say that Sabbath Keeping is a requirement for salvation but I will quote my favorite author in regards to obedience and faith.

 

 

 

 

 

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We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6. "Because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps." 1 Peter 2:21   Steps to Christ p. 61

 

It wouldn't matter if I were the most eloquent writer on the boards, it  would fail to bring anyone to accept that the keeping of the sabbath is just a "fruit of faith".  The original question was what day of the week is the sabbath and you agree as most do that the bible is crystal clear about the day.  Where we've derailed the thread is whether or not it is as important to Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy  as much as christians feel the other 9 commandments are important for believers to adhere to even though they know that it doesn't save them.  

[Remnantrob]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

It is a mistake to assume that “new covenant” in this passage is referring to what Christians often think of when they hear the phrase, “new covenant.”   Note that God said that He is making “A” new covenant with Israel and Judah.  This is not THE New Covenant” referenced by Jesus at the Last Supper. The New Covenant that we are under isn’t between God and man; it is between the Father and Jesus. So, they are two different covenants.

The context of Jeremiah 31 is eschatological, not soteriological and speaks of the permanent and literal restoration of Israel back to her biblical homeland. This can be seen in Jer. 31: 4-5, 8-13, 16-17, 21-24, 27-28, 35-37.   The context is such that it cannot be applied to the return from Babylon, as it was Judah that returned from Babylon, not Israel.  In Jeremiah’s day, Israel and Judah were still divided kingdoms, and so we need to keep that in mind when see them referenced in Jeremiah.  Having said that, we see references to Judah and Israel in 31, particularly in connection to the name, “Jacob” which is a reference to all 12 tribes (31:7, 11).

This “new covenant” needs to be seen in the light of a new thing (31:22) God is doing, namely the restoration of His covenant people back to their covenant land.  That is what this “new covenant” in Jeremiah has in view.  It is when this happens, that they will experience the new spiritual elements of this new covenant as referred to in 31:33-34.  So the “new covenant” in Jeremiah has not been entirely fulfilled up to this point.

But what about the fact that this passage is quoted in Heb. 8:8-13? Doesn’t that mean that we should understand this as referring to the New Covenant cut in Jesus blood?  This is a parallel application that the writer of Hebrews is using to make a didactic point about the superiority of the New Covenant to the Old Covenant.  The writer of Hebrews is not saying that what Jesus did on the cross in making the New Covenant in His blood is what Jeremiah prophesied about.  He is making a comparison between  the need for a new covenant for Israel and Judah because of the stubborn disobedience of Israel and Judah and the need for the New Covenant of salvation because of the stubborn disobedience and hopelessly lost estate of all mankind.  The “new covenant”  of Jer. 31:33-34 is not salvific; thus, is not a redemptive covenant.  The “new covenant” of Jer. 31:33-34 pertains to service/obedience, and not salvation.  It is worth noting that the OT prophets would never have seen this in the light of a Church age application because the “Church” was not ever prophesied  of in the OT.   The Church age was a mystery revealed by the apostles, and was not seen by the prophets.  So to argue that Jeremiah has the Church in view would, in my opinion, be incorrect, hermeneutically.

 

            So when we discuss the “new” elements of this prophecy of a “new covenant,” it is important to keep in mind that this is the context of a renewed or restored Israel/Judah.  That is important when discussing what is “new” about this new covenant.

I guess we'll have to get a New Covenant Vs. Old Covenant Thread going if there isn't already one open.  I'm well aware of the fact that you believe that my stance on the covenant is borderline heresy if not altogether antisemtic, but maybe breaking down the covenants could clarify what appears cloudy.   

[Guest shiloh357]

27 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

What I am asserting is that a Christian does not keep the law of God in order to be saved but because he is saved. It just so happens that the Sabbath is a part of that law.  I would never say that Sabbath Keeping is a requirement for salvation but I will quote my favorite author in regards to obedience and faith.

But you quoted this passage:  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."  You quoted in the context of keeping the Sabbath.  The implication is that it is God's will that we all keep the Sabbath day and those who don't will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
 

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We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6. "Because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps." 1 Peter 2:21

 

The author makes rather huge blunder in how he handles I John 2:3-6.   John, when he refers to commandments, uses a word that he only uses when speaking of Christian obedience.   He doesn't use "nomos" often used to refer to the commandments of the Mosaic law.  He uses the word, entole, which the word that John uses for the precepts and commands given personally by Jesus while on earth.   So the "commandments"  referenced are the commandments of Jesus found in the Gospels and has absolutely nothing to do with Sabbath observance.

John is not linking our relationship with Jesus with keeping the Sabbath or any of the 10 commandments.  So keeping the Sabbath day has nothing to do demonstrating that we love God or know Him.   The New Testament never sets that up as the standard.   It's our obedience the commands of Jesus given in the Gospel and our adherence to the doctrine of Christ.

I Peter 2:21 isn't talking about imitating Jesus' Sabbath observance. I Peter 2:13-25 is an entire section about humility and suffering.  Paul speaks of the same thing when he says, "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Phil._1:29).

So you need to really do a closer examination of the context of these passages, 'cause they really don't have anything to do with keeping the Sabbath.