walla299 Posted October 16, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,164 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 1,727 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/19/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/10/1961 Share Posted October 16, 2016 15 hours ago, Marilyn C said: Just a thought for those in America. Apparently 4,000 (four thousand) churches are closing each year. (from DVD `When God has left the building.`) Maybe time to build our/your own network of relationships that don`t `leave,` when we/you leave a meeting. We have done that for the past 15 years in our area & have solid relationships that help in everyday life, plus help each other reaching out & mentoring others. something to think about, Marilyn. Funny thing is, I always thought that was how things were supposed to work. Its one of the reasons I missed my friends and church so much when I came back to the US from Germany. The culture in the US was totally different with many (or most in that particular area) treating church as just the meetings and not the relationships that are supposed to develop among us. I've lived in a lot of places since then and its all the same "drive though" culture these days. Many don't want to stay for fellowship anymore, even after a church service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 7:26 PM, Out of the Shadows said: Seems he is saying just the opposite. The word is what is important, not music and how people dress and how they talk and if they have a beer with dinner..all things so much churches in this country get wrapped around the barrel about. Exactly OoTS. Music, dress, drinking alcohol (in moderation) etc. are not nearly as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 11:26 PM, Yowm said: Right. As you can gather from what I have said, the message can be delivered through various methods. My objection is when the method becomes the message and/or the message is buried under all the thrills and trinkets of the method. Someone has said if you use a circus to grow your congregation, you will end up with a congregation of circus goers. How is anything that I mentioned taking away from the message or suggesting a circus type setting for church settings? I mentioned music, the way visitors are treated, how funds are accumulated by the church, dress code, alcohol, cigarette use, and style of preaching, etc. This is what I said: On 10/14/2016 at 4:00 PM, GoldenEagle said: Method... It's like churches that are so out of touch they still have organ's playing music. Or they have people stand up who are visiting (sometimes for the first time) to introduce themselves. Or they pass around a tray for tithes and offerings. Or where a person has to dress a certain way to be welcomed in a church. People who drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes are to be shunned. These are all outdated methods of interacting with others, gathering in worship to God, and learning together from the Bible. Preaching can also can be in very eloquent form. There can be phrasing and terminology used which can seem loquacious (wordy). On the other hand, there can be language in a sermon that can be easy and to the point. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 5:34 PM, shiloh357 said: On 10/14/2016 at 4:01 PM, Out of the Shadows said: Last night I asked my wife what she felt like for dinner, she told me she we feeling like some salmon. I had a good feeling about that, so we went with it. I felt that I wanted to try something different so I made up my own rub that I felt would go well with bacon, then I layed bacon over top the salmon as it cooked. I also felt that a nice White Belgium Ale would go nicely with the fish dinner so that is what I did. I trusted my feelings from start to finish and it all turned out ok. But then again I do not believe there was an absolute truth about what I should eat for dinner. Yeah, that's complete and utter nonsense. Our faith is not rooted in emotion, but in the truth of God's word. We don't deal with matters of eternity on the basis of what we feel, but on the objective truth God has laid out in Scripture. Postmodernism views right and wrong in terms of emotion. Something is right or wrong based on how it makes someone feel. Truth doesn't matter to the postmodern, because to them there is no objective morality, nor is there any objective, absolute truth. If the Bible's teaching on the reality of the fallen state of man and that salvation is found in Christ alone makes a postmodern feel bad, they reject that teaching. No one should ever attempt measure truth in terms of how they feel about it. Truth is not relative or subjective. Truth objective and it is vital. Shiloh, I do not think that word means what you think it means... Or how you are using it. Nonsense: 1. spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense. 2. foolish or unacceptable behavior. What @Out of the Shadows said made sense and had meaning. It was not foolish or unacceptable behavior. He had dinner and cooked a meal. You are speaking in absolutes here on a matter that may or may not coincide with your belief system. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/15/2016 at 10:53 AM, kwikphilly said: Heya Brother I stand corrected! I agree,we cannot "make" them or anyone else "feel" a certain way,we can be a great influence........thanks for the correction,I appreciate that because that is not really what I wanted to say.....CONTAGIOUS is a much better word!!!! With love-in Christ,Kwik BTW,I would love to hear it,PM anytime!!!!~! Hiya Sis Check your PMs. Sorry, I hope it was understood to be a gentle correction or nudge. It makes a big difference though in the wording. Yes, contagious is a really great word. We have been trying to work on ourselves as parents and seeking to deepen our relationship with God & each other. It's hard work but worth it. Unfortunately, some of our bad habits we noticed were picked up by our kids. We are trying to remedy this. Praying God redeems the time and effort. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, GoldenEagle said: Shiloh, I do not think that word means what you think it means... Or how you are using it. Nonsense: 1. spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense. 2. foolish or unacceptable behavior. What @Out of the Shadows said made sense and had meaning. It was not foolish or unacceptable behavior. He had dinner and cooked a meal. You are speaking in absolutes here on a matter that may or may not coincide with your belief system. God bless, GE The analogy was nonsense. It's not that the words have no meaning or make no sense. The substance of the analogy makes no sense in light of the context of not following our feelings in spiritual/theological matters. I used the word correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 1:26 PM, shiloh357 said: I think by changing churches for his kid's sake is taking into account their feelings. It would be miserable to be the only kid(s) in a church and no one there competent to minister to that person's needs. So I think some consideration of kids feelings is good and necessary. Shiloh, I agree with this! Growing up our parents always tried to communicate with us and even pray through family decisions with us. Including kids in the decision process can really help them trust in God and help the family grow closer together. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 4:24 PM, Yowm said: The 60's saw the 'Jesus people revival' which came out of those so called 'stodgy' churches . The Great Awakening, and the Welsh revival all without 'methods' as well. Jonathan Edwards had to be the most monotone preacher and yet... It takes prayer, the Gospel and the Spirit's move opening eyes and hearts, convicting of sin and birthing faith in God's love. I think you're examples are actually strawmen. It is the liberal Churches attempt to 'attract' the unchurched with polls, programs and pancake breakfasts' instead of the essentials, which is closer to the problem. 1Cor 9 does hold weight...in the context of the Gospel preached for souls, not for profit. On 10/14/2016 at 4:56 PM, GoldenEagle said: Funny that you should mention a straw man. You asked for clarification and I provided clarification for what I meant. I didn't realize we were opponents in this conversation nor that we were having an argument. I thought we were simply sharing ideas and thoughts... A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then refuting that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition. So, given this brief working definition of a straw man fallacy... I ask you where did I say that prayer, the Gospel, the Holy Spirit moving were not part of the method? Why are we all of a sudden talking about "liberal" churches? What I mentioned was that the Gospel doesn't change but the method of presenting the Gospel does change. What worked for the Jesus movement, Great Awakening, or Jonathan Edwards, or even 40-50 years ago may not and likely does not work today. It's a simple fact. Look at the numbers of people who partake in churches who are under 50 as evidence. God bless, GE On 10/14/2016 at 6:53 PM, Yowm said: So God's Gospel (Word), and Spirit are insufficient, is that your message? On 10/14/2016 at 7:08 PM, Yowm said: The straw was when you brought up organs and religious sounding preachers,tithing, dress etc., thus attacking the Church when really those are just excuses. You would have had a case if you said the truths of Scripture are not heard anymore like the substitutionary atonement for our sins, or repentance, heaven and hell etc. 27 minutes ago, Yowm said: You seem to have this thing about everything I say is directed at you as if I am charging you personally with my gripe. All I said was " My objection is when the method becomes the message and/or the message is buried under all the thrills and trinkets of the method. " I didn't charge you personally. Let's see here Yowm... Maybe it's due to the way you've interacted with me in this thread? One of the things you asked was if I believe that God's Gospel (Word) and Spirit are insufficient. I have no idea where you got that idea. You were arguing against something I never claimed and have no idea where you would interpret my belief system as such. You also accused me of bringing up a straw man. Funny enough again you actually were arguing against something I didn't even claim and then trying to re-buff it. My examples were not a straw man at all. In fact, they were giving examples of what I was talking about... The method people approach others with the Gospel. I never did attack the church. I simply pointed out that the church's methods are antiquated and maybe not very efficient in reaching younger generations. Again, the numbers support my claim. Take any poll, research available, or simply look at the composition of many of the churches around you. Not to mention you brought up liberal churches somehow into the conversation and never clarified what exactly that had to do with what I said. Or whatever you meant by excuses either. In any case I'm glad we were able to clear some of that up. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 4:00 PM, GoldenEagle said: Method: a particular form of procedure for accomplishing or approaching something, especially a systematic or established one. What do I mean by method? Well I guess 1 Corinthians 9 comes to mind. 1 Cor. 9: 19-23 19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the Gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. It's like churches that are so out of touch they still have organ's playing music. Or they have people stand up who are visiting (sometimes for the first time) to introduce themselves. Or they pass around a tray for tithes and offerings. Or where a person has to dress a certain way to be welcomed in a church. People who drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes are to be shunned. These are all outdated methods of interacting with others, gathering in worship to God, and learning together from the Bible. Preaching can also can be in very eloquent form. There can be phrasing and terminology used which can seem loquacious (wordy). On the other hand, there can be language in a sermon that can be easy and to the point. Same message different methodology. Does that clarify things for you? Or would you agree? God bless, GE I do want to give some alternatives to the above in red... Re: Music Music can be with an orchestra, organ, piano, guitar, band, choir, praise team or any combination of the options mentioned. An organ, orchestra, or choir is probably less appealing to worship God with those in the generation X, Y or Z. Music evolves over time and how we worship with music probably should as well. Re: Visitors Visitors typically don't want to be singled out when they go to a church. They want to get the feel for the church and meet individuals at best. They want to know that they're in a safe place with people that they can relate to. They don't typically want to get up and give their life stories. Visitors should feel welcome and should not be made to feel unnecessarily singled out. Re: Taking up the Collection Giving is supposed to be a very personal matter. Taking up a public collection is antiquated and really likely not a true Biblical practice. Having boxes in the back of the church and envelopes readily available is probably a better idea. This allows members to give throughout the service and doesn't make visitors feel awkward. You'd be surprised how many Christians aren't even used to the idea of giving to the local church regularly. But that is a topic for another thread. Giving is important in the worship experience but it doesn't have to be done with an offering plate. Re: Dress Code Believe it or not there are some places that will not allow you to enter a church if you are not dressed a certain way or meet certain standards. Even in churches that don't have "official" policies there are even unwritten rules at times. I'll give you an example. Some people we knew went to a big church. The wife wore shorts and the husband had a holy shirt. People barely even spoke a word to them. And their children were not "well-behaved" as they'd never really been in church before. Afterwards the pastor's wife came up to me and told me that these visitors really needed to get their act together and keep their kids in line. It was a similar experience with the children's ministry and youth. Needless to say that family didn't stay at this church. It is not about what we wear. It is about how we love that sets us apart from the world. Re: Alcohol, Cigarettes, & Drugs Addictions to alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs are a problem in our society. We should seek to help others and not simply judge them or send them out the door. Also not everyone who drinks alcohol is a drunkard. Not everyone who smokes a cigarette or does drugs wants to continue doing so. Rejecting them is not the answer. It is risky to love broken people. We should love people where they're at, accept them as they are, and help them as best we can. Re: The Poor Or Different Some people go through struggles and they simply need a hand up. There is a death in the family, a natural disaster, or someone looses their job. These people need to be loved on and they need Jesus just as much as anyone else. Some people feel one must have a certain status in life to attend church. Or that others of a different ethnicity should have their own churches. Multi-cultural churches are coming to the West believe it or not. Just look at all the diversity of those who have been coming to the USA. Heaven is going to be very multi-cultural. Might as well get used to it. A person's wealth, culture, or skin color should not affect how we welcome them into our churches. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel_NLD Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Members Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1983 Share Posted October 18, 2016 On 13-10-2016 at 1:27 PM, Louvain said: Coming to Netherlands im looking for a church. I think im going to Hillsong here. I just love the way of worship is there. Here in the Netherlands we have Hillsong Amsterdam (in Amsterdam and Rotterdam), that is directly connected to Hillsong London. And we have a bunch of City Life Churches, which basicly is a Hillsong church. They can be found in The Hague, Utrecht, Zwolle, Tilburg, Den Helder, Assen and Rotterdam. Those are a bit smaller and for the most in dutch, but translation is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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