QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Daniel 11:36]

The event

[1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 25;1-13; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

The proof [those who dwell in heaven during the coming tribulation]

[Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:4; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:4 .... those already on thrones] 

[n2thelight]

On 1/1/2017 at 2:20 PM, ENOCH2010 said:

Only 2 resurrections of a massive group are spoken about in the Bible, the first resurrection at the return of Christ, and the second resurrection after the 1000 year reign. Where is the one you called the Lord's pre-trib resurrection spoken about in the Bible?

 

I still say the resurrection happens at death

 

Result of search for "resurrection":

386. anastasis an-as'-tas-is from 450; a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):--raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

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1454. egersis eg'-er-sis from 1453; a resurgence (from death):--resurrection.

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1815. exanastasis ex-an-as'-tas-is from 1817; a rising from death:--resurrection.

 

We follow Christ,if Christ is still not in the ground then neither are we,even before the cross there was no soul sleep

 

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

The purpose for Jesus Christ's coming to earth and living in the flesh, was so that He would die on the cross for your sins. Jesus was just [righteous] in all manner of His flesh life, and in His death "the Just" suffered for the sins of the unjust. Jesus Christ came to earth to die so that you do not need to go to hell, but by your faith in Him and belief in what Jesus has done on the cross, through your repentance to the Father in Jesus name you can be saved. It is your soul that receives eternal life, and when this flesh body dies and is laid in the ground, it is your spirit and soul that is quickened, or goes on living eternally. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, giving you new changed life, where there was only a dead soul before. Jesus died to bring all souls to the Father.

If you ever had any question as to what part of Jesus died on the cross, you have it right here. Jesus Christ's flesh body was died, whereas His spiritual body was quickened or made alive by His Spirit. Jesus was spiritually alive when He descended into the prison to preach to those lost souls.

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

Note the subject in the below

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The subject is those who have died

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

How can God bring with Him those who have died,if they're not already with Him?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, n2thelight said:

I still say the resurrection happens at death

Even Mary knew otherwise.

Jhn 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Jhn 11:24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Where do we go when we die that we must be resurrected so as to be with Jesus?  Paradise, the "first" Heaven.

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Even Mary knew otherwise.

Jhn 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Jhn 11:24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Where do we go when we die that we must be resurrected so as to be with Jesus?  Paradise, the "first" Heaven.

The last day is at death,for those who die

 

John 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If you claim the name of Christ and call yourself a Christian, How do you answer the question that Jesus asked Martha here? Do you believe that whosoever that lives in this physical life, and believeth in Christ, their soul shall never die? That means that regardless what happens to this flesh body, their soul continues with life exactly as it is while in the flesh. Or are you one that thinks that the soul quits also until a time in the distant future?

What you would be saying then is that if you have Christ in you and you die, then Christ died within you. This whole idea is pagan in origin, and was what the Kenite religious traditional thought was. Yet this is what is taught in most Churches as they peddle their so-called rapture doctrine.

Ecclesiastes the ninth chapter teaches that once the dead body dies and goes into the ground, nobody remembers the flesh, it is gone, it cannot learn, and it will never be brought up to life again. Why? Because that is where this flesh, which is made of the dust of the ground goes. Then as we read in Ecclesiastes 12 we see that the spirit which is the intellect of the soul, goes instantly at death to be with the Father. When the silver cord parts, that joins together the physical body with its spiritual soul body, that spirit and soul is not on the earth for the rest of this earth age.

[Daniel 11:36]

My comment

The spirit of a dead man is returned to his Maker

And the dead man knows nothing as time passes on the earth

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven

Heaven is the state of immortality

The Lord has a schedule for making men immortal; just before His coming judgment upon an unbelieving world and at the ending of the same tribulation for those who will turn to Him during the tribulation and are martyred for their faith

The balance of the spirits of unbelieving humans will experience the second death and cease to exist at the end of His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... then He will bring His eternal kingdom with new heavens and a new earth inhabited forever by those who have been made immortal

There are no immortal humans in existence yet ..... all are waiting to be transformed at the Lord's schedule

Further more, understand that the thief on the cross is still waiting just as are David and Stephen for examples

The Lord told the thief that he would be made immortal on the day he died .... how then could he still be waiting?

Because he is not conscious about time passing from the moment he died until the scheduled day that the Lord will call him

All who have died in unbelief are still waiting until the Lord executes the second death of their spirits at the great white throne judgment

Many man made theologies have been constructed that manipulate the above schedule and they can be very misleading to the extent of being deceptive 

 Be careful what you follow on your journey 

 

 

 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Daniel

     You are not way off from my own beliefs......I think many call this "soul sleep" I don't know about that but I think a lot about the probabilities that from living in an earthly vessel that an exists in this realm of space v& time boundaries we then transcend into the Eternal Realm that is no longer bound by space or time....kind of hard to imagine really ........but God is Present everywhere & HE has no Boundaries,when we are Risen or caught up(depending on whether or not we are physically deador alive at the time He gathers us up to Himself then we shall be as He is,in our New Glorified Bodies!!!!Halleluyah!  Anyway,I do understand what you are saying only difference is I do not see any Scriptoral support for your ideas about the unbelievers becoming "non-existent"......quite the contrary,the Word of God tells is in no uncertain terms that the place for those who have not been Reconciled back to our Father will endure eternal torment.......

  Many do indeed point to the thief on the cross to support their interpretation of

Quote

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Like 23:43

   One day ,after much research & study I was simply shown in a Greek Text(which has no punctuation marks BTW)

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day ,shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Changes it a bit,doesn't it? Anyway,I see that you do agree,not a Salvational issue but perhaps food for thought for some..........    

AS far as the "non-existent" theory,I don't think that is a very good idea to propagate,takes away all the urgency or need for a Savior,imo    

I think I am way off Topic here..........maybe best for a different,new Thread?                   

                                                                       With love-in Christ
 

[Daniel 11:36]

I believe that you have the correct perspective above with regard for the eternal dimension that you have explained .... this is sometimes hard for an earth bound man to understand, but the Lord has shown it to you

Like He said before Abraham was, I am .... the eternal has no time constraints and so it will be for the man who is made immortal

I believe that eternal punishment for unbelievers means "final" punishment with no recourse .... finished and never to exist again

I do not believe that it is in the Lord's character to make a man suffer forever .... there would be no good reason for doing so

The loss of the man's opportunity for a perfect never ending immortality in the Lord's eternal kingdom will be the "hell" experienced .... and to know this fate [Revelation 20:11-15]

There is the parable about the rich man and lazarus, however it is just a parable to emphasize a point .... the Lord is warning about the fate of the rich man who never turns to Him and not a literal experience [Luke 16:19-31]  

 

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[kwikphilly]

Quote

I believe that eternal punishment for unbelievers means "final" punishment with no recourse .... finished and never to exist again

Its nice talking to you Daniel,yes indeed "time constraints" ,I do believe this is where some folks get a bit confused & do not consider this(I don't think it is a big deal ,if our Lord did desire that we know more He would have elaborated on the specifics,lol......we will know one day for sure

Now,this is where we disagree Brother(above).....& that is okay that we do,I would love to be wrong but I am afraid it is not so....

Quote

Matthew 25:31-46King James Version (KJV)

³¹ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

³² And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

³³ And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

³⁵ For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

³⁶ Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

³⁷ Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

³⁸ When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

³⁹ Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

⁴⁰ And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

⁴¹ Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

⁴² For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

⁴³ I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

⁴⁴ Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

⁴⁵ Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

⁴⁶ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

                                                                             With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Daniel 11:36]

Thanks for the response

My view is that "everlasting punishment" means final judgment with no recourse .... in other words the sentence will be irreversible

I believe that this truth is also substantiated here [Revelation 21:1-8]

 

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[kwikphilly]

Quote

Revelation 21:1-8King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

² And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

³ And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

⁴ And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

⁵ And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

⁶ And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

⁷ He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

⁸ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

How so? Just as we were once DEAD in our sin before we were made ALIVE in Christ,we shall never see the second death & return to that state of BEING,as we once were    To me this gives much support that a Believer can "fall away" ......a point of much controversy,lol     In any event,the second death does not mean ceasing to exist,they will have their part in the lake of fire ,,,,,

Quote

King James Bible
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10

                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik