QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[n2thelight]

1 hour ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Malachi 1:3 doesn't say that God hated him before he was born.

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Malachi 1:3 "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

Will you or can you answer the question?

Edited January 7, 2017 by n2thelight

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 hours ago, coheir said:

the Bible clearly says was in spirit. and it is also clear not to add anything to the bible. It also says no one has ever went to heaven and came back to earth except Jesus.

You used "clear" twice.  So this is a double-down prior conclusion of yours?  So clearly it was a spiritual stomach ache he had...  Yes, that is sarcasm because you failed to reconcile contradictory evidence in the Bible.

If you want to tell me something is "clear" then it must be clear-cut.  This is not clear-cut.  "Clearly" on your part clearly means it is your concrete opinion which will stand defiantly in opposition to any other argument.  Nothing new there.  I've yet to see anyone but me change their mind based on a post on a message board.  Some people cannot be sharpened; others refuse to be sharpened.

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.

One moment John is standing on Patmos.  The next moment John is standing in Heaven before the Father - whom no one has seen before and returned.

HOW  he got there was in spirit.  "the" is added in translation, and your reading in an English translation does not necessarily mean John was reduced to a spiritual entity.  It was not just his soul that was transported to a plane of existence we can never travel to despite all our machinery, because souls don't really come equipped with bodily organs - Rev 10:10.

The Bible rarely tells us HOW God does things.  This is one too.  To say it is "clear" when contradictory evidence is given for a physical, mortal body, then is not iron-clad clear-cut, but just a conclusion you're going to hold onto despite any investigation.  This is why we should never make too much of any one verse - myopically focusing on just one small aspect ignores the greater weight of Scripture.

John returned.  So John 3:13 did not preclude his transport there and back!
What Jesus said established two things:

1. No one has the power to go to Heaven on their own!  John had to be called AND he had to be transported there in a way which is NOT explained.
2. What Jesus said established His Authority to speak on behalf of the Father.

That is the point of John 3:13.  Read it in context; Jesus is explaining certain things to Nicodemus, who has some modicum of understanding but who is still befuddled by Jesus' Words which act as a stumbling stone to him.  Nothing new there - that was also prophesized to happen.

John 3:13 does not prove that we don't go to Heaven with the Rapture as some try to twist this verse to mean against contradictory passages in the Bible. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

7 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Malachi 1:3 "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."

Will you or can you answer the question?

Silly rabbit; Trix are for kids.

Romans 9:13 quotes Malachi 1:2-3  (Paul did not have our medieval chapter/verse system).

Neither Romans 9:13 nor Malachi 1:3 establishes that there was an Esau before he was born that God hated.

SO!  Neither verse supports your argument that we were alive WITH God before we were born using the Prophet as the object of God's Word in Jeremiah 1:5.

Like Isaiah 49 - While I said that I viewed the Prophet's vision to that of being an insight into this very special Father-Son relationship between God the Father and our Lord Christ Jesus --

I will have to change my assessment.  (This is still not a particularly important verse to me...)  Jeremiah IS the object of that verse.  (I'm used to hearing the verse just as 'I knew you before you were born' - as if we all were with God the Father.  I don't think so.  However - for Jesus that was true!

Now I will say: Jeremiah 1:5 demonstrates that God's KNOWLEDGE transcends our linear time line existence!

It is entirely possible, yet not fathomable for us mere mortals bound by linear tick-tock time, for God to foreknow our destiny!

This is the conundrum Christians are faced with when they look at Paul's statements on predestination.

However, we can reconcile free will and predestination when we look at time from an imaginary vantage point: IF our time lines were linear lines on a flat endless two-dimensional plane - yet we could observe ALL from a third dimension of time (like space) which was above it - and thus could "SEE" all of it - then that ONE person would know ahead of our time where our path led!

So Jeremiah 1:5 STILL does not prove we were alive with God before we were born.

You can say it "clearly" does mean that - but all that does is demonstrate your heart-felt conclusion which you tell yourself is true.

What about Esau?  Why are you going on about him?  Are you trying to make some great point about some minor player?  Are you trying to pull an "inchrist" and translate him to importance beyond his role like "inchrist" says of Ephraim?

So your question is on ignore.  It is not relevant to end-time prophecy unless you want to look at the Millennium redemption of Israel - his brother and the father of a nation of hard-headed unbelievers in Christ Jesus.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Marcus O'Reillius

[n2thelight]

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Silly rabbit; Trix are for kids.

Romans 9:13 quotes Malachi 1:2-3  (Paul did not have our medieval chapter/verse system).

Neither Romans 9:13 nor Malachi 1:3 establishes that there was an Esau before he was born that God hated.

SO!  Neither verse supports your argument that we were alive WITH God before we were born using the Prophet as the object of God's Word in Jeremiah 1:5.

Like Isaiah 49 - While I said that I viewed the Prophet's vision to that of being an insight into this very special Father-Son relationship between God the Father and our Lord Christ Jesus --

I will have to change my assessment.  (This is still not a particularly important verse to me...)  Jeremiah IS the object of that verse.  (I'm used to hearing the verse just as 'I knew you before you were born' - as if we all were with God the Father.  I don't think so.  However - for Jesus that was true!

Now I will say: Jeremiah 1:5 demonstrates that God's KNOWLEDGE transcends our linear time line existence!

It is entirely possible, yet not fathomable for us mere mortals bound by linear tick-tock time, for God to foreknow our destiny!

This is the conundrum Christians are faced with when they look at Paul's statements on predestination.

However, we can reconcile free will and predestination when we look at time from an imaginary vantage point: IF our time lines were linear lines on a flat endless two-dimensional plane - yet we could observe ALL from a third dimension of time (like space) which was above it - and thus could "SEE" all of it - then that ONE person would know ahead of our time where our path led!

So Jeremiah 1:5 STILL does not prove we were alive with God before we were born.

You can say it "clearly" does mean that - but all that does is demonstrate your heart-felt conclusion which you tell yourself is true.

What about Esau?  Why are you going on about him?  Are you trying to make some great point about some minor player?  Are you trying to pull an "inchrist" and translate him to importance beyond his role like "inchrist" says of Ephraim?

So your question is on ignore.  It is not relevant to end-time prophecy unless you want to look at the Millennium redemption of Israel - his brother and the father of a nation of hard-headed unbelievers in Christ Jesus.

Im done with yu,as it seems ur reading comprehension skills are on another level than mine.

Yu and a lot of others say because God just knows,if that were the case the reason for this age is just irrelevant.

Yu and a lot of others ms the reason why we had to be born of woman(flesh)

 

Anyway,Im gd and yu continue 2 do what yu do

 

The one thing I know we can all agree on is that we shall find out!!

[Daniel 11:36]

"You used "clear" twice.  So this is a double-down prior conclusion of yours? "

 

This is clear ...."In the spirit" [Revelation 1:10; 4:1-2]

And this is clear .... [Revelation 22:18-19]

So what is your beef?

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

15 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

This is clear ...."In the spirit" [Revelation 1:10; 4:1-2]

That's hardly clear. 
First of all, it's just "in spirit".  There is no "the" to designate a specific spirit. 
Now what does "in spirit" mean?

It is not "as a spirit".
And it is not quite like an out-of-body experience. 

Even Paul doesn't know quite what to make of it as I think John is the man Paul is referring to in this verse:

2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.  3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

It is not clear to Paul which way John was transported to Heaven.

While he was in spirit in Rev 1:10 when He hears God, which can mean to be spiritually in tune as it is used in other places in the New Testament --
-- that is quite different than being "in spirit" when John moves to Heaven, because now John has been relocated.

Paul doesn't think it's clear at all whether God moved John's body to the spiritual plane of God that no one can travel to even with airplanes and rockets.

Now I think God did move John's person into the spiritual realm - just as Jesus popped into and out of our world after He rose from the grave but before He ascended.

And when I say that, it does not violate John 3:13 because John did not ascend himself (the Greek active voice) - he was commanded by God to 'come up here' - and he was immediately transported - but not by his own power.

[douggg]

On 1/6/2017 at 2:14 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

The second 1260 days will be the time frame of the two witnesses, their preaching, their death, and their resurrection at the end of the period

The third woe will occur within the next 30 days to include the 7 vials against the beast and his kingdom at the battle of Armageddon [Revelation 11:15; 15:6-8; 16:1-16]

Keep in mind that when studying Revelation has a series of visions focused upon particular subjects and the same revolve and repeat adding more details as the narrative moves forward [much of Revelation's presentation is not in strict chronological order]

The two witnesses testify the first 1260 days to match the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6.      The abomination of desolation is setup on day 1185 (2520-1335).    That is when the Jews begin fleeing into the wilderness.     For 75 days the two witnesses call judgments on the earth as they battle with the beast.    On day 1260 the two witnesses are killed, closing the window for fleeing.

On day 1263.5 the two witnesses come back to life, ascend to heaven.     The 7th trumpet sounds announcing the kingdoms of this world are now become the kingdoms of God and his Christ.    It is an announcement that God is at that time is going to remove the kingdoms of this world from Satan's grasp.

So there is the war in heaven and Satan and his angels cast down (the third woe - woe to the inhabitants of the earth)  for the second half, the time, times, half times.       Them who had fled into the wilderness, the mountains, will be protected there.   But them who did not flee in time, will be stuck in Jerusalem, as Satan and the beast persecute them, until Jesus returns.

The way Revelation 6 through 16 is structured, the chapter(s) either cover the entire 70th week or the second half of the 70th week depending on the chapter (blue).

Chapters 17, 18, 19, 20 are theme based (red).

Revealing of the seven years the seals, seals 1-6   chapter 6

Revealing of the trumpet judgments, second half of the seven years chapter 7 + chapter 8 + chapter 9

Revealing of the seven years according to the little book   chapter 10 + chapter 11

Revealing of the seven years relevant to Israel   chapter 12

Revealing of the second half of the seven years after the two witnesses are gone  chapter 13 + chapter 14

Revealing of the bowls of wrath during the second half of the seven years  chapter 15 + chapter 16

Revealing of the woman and the beast, and the mystery of the heads and horns  chapter 17

Revealing of the judgement on Babylon the great  chapter 18

Revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ's return to earth  chapter 19 + chapter 20

 

 

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Now for an alternate view of Daniel 9:27 and Revelation, here are the five times the one 'seven' is mentioned in Revelation in reverse order.

First of all, Daniel 9:27 sets up the beginning, the middle, and the end of the one 'seven'.

Second of all, Revelation is made up of parallel accounts.
I view Revelation chapters 13-16 as one linear narrative centering on the theme of the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ.

In chapters 13-16:
- we see the rise of the dragon-beast of a nation.
- the rise of the beast of a man, who begins the one 'seven', being the ruler who will come.
- who is given authority to rule for the first half of the one 'seven'
- with this authority, he wages war upon Christians.
- the rise of the false prophet from the "land" who rains "fire" from "heaven" and has control over the Temple.
- and finally - the midpoint abomination of desolation spoken by Gabriel revealed to be a talking image of the beast of a man.
- following this, is the reason for the Great Tribulation which comes before the Day of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse, and likewise in another view of the same event: the Harvest from the clouds in Revelation 14:14-16.
- The end comes with chapter 16 at Armageddon, which is not detailed in this account, but awaits the final epilogue account of Revelation chapters 19-22.

In Revelation chapter 12, I view it as the twin parallel accounts going from the Jesus' First Advent to the second half of the one 'seven' where the Remnant Jews are protected.  This puts the time frame for both to around two millennia.
- the first twin parallel account (1-6) centers around the woman, Israel: see Genesis 37:9-10
- She is provided for in the second half of the one 'seven' with refuge from Satan's minions.
- the second twin parallel account (7-17) centers around the dragon-Satan.
- It too spans around two millennia going from Jesus' adjudication before the Father (Zec 3:1-8) to the same second half of the one 'seven'.
- The difference between Jew and Christian is set in verse 17, and that is synonymous with the Great Tribulation caused by Rev 13:14-16.

In what I view as the Sidebar Account of Revelation 11:1-13 - which happens when the Seal/Scroll narrative is interrupted when John is told not to write what was said:
- The first half of the one 'seven' concerns the building of the Temple
- which will house the talking image of the anti-Christ, the midpoint abomination of desolation that Jesus said would be in the "Holy Place" in Mt 24:15.
- The second half of the one 'seven' has the Two Witnesses preceding Christ Jesus' Parousia coming as God's first responders to the midpoint abomination.
- They continue to the end of the one 'seven' and finally complete the number of fifth Seal martyrs only at the end of the one 'seven'.

_______________________________________________________________
 

In Daniel 12, the time line given ADDS two time frames, the 30-day and 45-day periods.
This is very important to the Remnant Jews who fled at:
1) the midpoint surrounding of Jerusalem from Judea
2) Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord and escape through the newly cleft valley in the Mount of Olives
3) Those few Jews who survive the whole of the one 'seven' in Jerusalem.

And who were whisked around as per Rev 16:15 and Isaiah 42:16 must be joined by other Jews around the world who will lead the Meek to finally seek the Lord!  (Zec 8:23). 

Daniel 12 sets up the sojourn and encampment at Mount Zion which precedes the Millennium.
It is during this time that the three previous beasts of Daniel 7 are permitted to live after He has cut the "head" off of the dragon-beast of a nation.

The midpoint of the one 'seven' is in the middle.
The abomination of desolation, revealed as a talking image of the beast of a man - the King of the North - set up in the Temple built in the first half of the one 'seven' - acts as a trip wire for God's Rescue of His People: the Elect - us.
This classical hero story sets up all such super-hero tales: the plot is advanced by the evil-doer, and when he has committed his crime - then the hero responds and finishes the job.

[douggg]

45 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I view Revelation chapters 13-16 as one linear narrative centering on the theme of the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ.

Hi Marcus, the person who becomes the Antichrist will have already done so before Revelation 13.    Revelation 13 is focused on the last 42 months of the 7 years.

The person becomes the Antichrist (the King of Israel) at the start of the seven years.    Then he betrays Israel, by claiming to be God.    And the Jews will reject him as continuing as their King.     That ends his time as being the Antichrist, after being their King of Israel for about 3 years 3 months.

He is killed and comes back to life - that is where Revelation 13 picks up.    He is the beast that last 42 months, but not the Antichrist.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"The two witnesses testify the first 1260 days to match the 1260 days"

The too witnesses will testify during the beasts's rule over Jerusalem .... the second 1260 days [42 months] [Revelation 11:2-7; 13:1-5]