QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

In the case of the two witness they are raised to life and ascend.  John does not consider this a resurrection that counts.  It is his writing and account of what he saw and yet it is in Rev 20 that he says, "this is the first resurrection".  A rapture is when people who have not yet died go up in the air and are changed on the way up.  That does not happen with the two witnesses.  They are the only ones going up with others looking on.

The text indicates that the rest of the dead are all those who have died and not taken part in the first resurrection.  Rev. 20: 12-14 give us indication of those who are raised and what happens.

   

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Agree.  The term "resurrection" can refer to either being brought back to a mortal life as in the case of Lazarus and others, or it can refer to receiving immortal life.  There are three such immortal resurrections.

• For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.  But each in his own order: (1) Christ the first fruits, after that (2) those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, (3) when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.  1 Corinthians 15:22-24

There are two immortal resurrections left to come to pass.  The first resurrection is when Christ returns.  The second is after the 1000 years is ended.

[ENOCH2010]

Correct Daze, The Bible in Rev.20 is easily  understood if people would put aside their pet theories at believe it as written.

[WailingWall]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:45 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Jesus indicates twice in the Gospels that our place will be in Heaven upon His Return.

Mt 13:24-31 "...but gather the wheat into my barn."

John 14:3 1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going." 5 Thomas *said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

 

Matthew 13:27-30 (KJV)
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Doesnt fit your rapture story. Not sure how your story goes but most all Rapturist believe they will be raptured and 7 yrs later, Christ returns and burns up the wicked. Scripture above says quite the opposite.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/18/2016 at 10:53 AM, WailingWall said:

So tell me Ezra will scripture below suddenly vanish from your bible after you are raptured to heaven

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13 and the Rapture to Heaven.

CHAPTER 3

The New Birth

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, " Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

•       Does the statement setting up in the negation of it by Jesus’ First Advent preclude any future ascension?

•          Does Jesus’ statement as a standalone constitute an internal inconsistency with Enoch and Elijah?

As to the first question, a topical reading would not disallow any future ascension even in the English perfect tense.  Indeed, Christ Jesus will ascend into Heaven as He told Mary on the day of His Resurrection, putting His meeting with the Father as something yet to have occurred, and later, the final ascension of Jesus from the Mount of Olives in Acts 1:11.  Those that try to use this verse so as to say no entry to Heaven will ever be allowed are misusing the language.  Even the Greek perfect tense allows a future possibility because it starts with a completed past action of having already ascended.

·         Perfect Tense: The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.  By Corey Keating

at www.ntgreek.org

The whole point of verse 13 is to shake Nicodemus’ foundation for Jesus’ witness of the earthly things He has borne witness which leads Nicodemus to believe God is with Him.  Overall, He is presenting Nicodemus, member of the Pharisees ordinarily opposed to His Teaching. with statements which show the schism between their two world views.  This Jesus does with His opening statement which leaves Nicodemus wondering.

Jesus scoffs at his bewilderment by questioning his role as a rabbi to understand these things and further gets to the point of “our” witness – which again focuses on the indwelling Holy Spirit as a second witness that indeed God is with Him.  This satisfies the legal requirement with Judaism for witness so as to establish truth.  The whole point of the miracles Jesus performs is to establish His Witness as truth because God is involved.  Miracles then provide the foundation for the truth of Jesus’ Ministry: to come to the Father through Him summed up in John 3:16.

In itself, verse 13 can be misconstrued.  Again, Jesus is making the case for witness before He gets to the critical statement for faith in Him.  The ascension is required and married to the descent in order to provide a witness.  In the perfect tense, this has never been accomplished except for the Son of Man – and is pointedly a prerequisite in order to provide a witness of “heavenly things”.  Since Jesus has precluded providing any witness of heavenly things when they will not believe the earthly things He has already addressed.

Furthermore, uses the negation that anyone else has gone up to Heaven to provide such witness with the implication that He alone can provide that witness having descended from Heaven.  Jesus establishes His authority to tell Nicodemus of “heavenly things” because He alone has come from Heaven.  This Jesus has already precluded because the point of His Ministry was not to tell them of Heaven, but to lead them to Heaven.

Now in the case question:  • Does Jesus’ statement as a standalone constitute an internal inconsistency with Enoch and Elijah?  As a standalone statement in the English, a poor student of the Bible could say that even Enoch and Elijah never went to Heaven even when they could not be found anymore on this earth.  However, the answer is: No, because of the added information John has written into the Greek which conveys what Jesus said.

The verb ‘ascend’ is in the active voice. 

·                     Active Voice: Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is executing the action, then the verb is referred to as being in the active voice.
By Corey Keating at www.ntgreek.org

This nuance of the Greek delineates the action and specifies that the man desiring to go to Heaven must have the power to do so on his own ability.  Jesus said specifically that no one has the ability to go to Heaven in the first place.  This is an important distinction when anyone want to make a definitive statement precluding any future movement to Heaven.

When God translates a man to Heaven, as He did with Enoch, Elijah, and even with a literal reading of Ezekiel’s heavenly visions, that man is the recipient of the action.  This is not precluded by what Jesus said.  Jesus did not say that no man could ever be translated from the earthly realm to the heavenly realm by God.  Jesus said that no man has the power to do so on his own accord.

So there is no internal inconsistency to the Bible by John 3:13 as some who teach Replacement Theology with the deliverance of the people of the First Resurrection to the physical land of Israel in this world.  Their use of this verse manifests a lack of understanding rivaling Nicodemus’ and a flagrant deception on their part by misusing a verse.  Not only are such people taking a single verse out of context, they are ignoring the meaning John uses to convey what exactly is being said.

•          John 3:13 does not preclude a future removal of people to Heaven.

•          John 3:13 does not constitute an internal inconsistency in the Bible.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/18/2016 at 4:50 PM, WailingWall said:

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Goin to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain (in the twinkling of an eye}

Replacement Theology would say everything to natural Israel is meant for the spiritual Israel of the Church.  
This, however, is written to Israel proper in that time period: the northern tribes.

11 And the Lord said to me, " Faithless Israel has proved herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north and say,
' Return, faithless Israel,' declares the Lord;
' I will not look upon you in anger.
For I am gracious,' declares the Lord;
'I will not be angry forever.
13 'Only acknowledge your iniquity,
That you have transgressed against the Lord your God
And have scattered your favors to the strangers under every green tree,
And you have not obeyed My voice,' declares the Lord.
14 'Return, O faithless sons,' declares the Lord;
'For I am a master to you,
And I will take you one from a city and two from a family,
And I will bring you to Zion. '  -NASB

ba'al, has two meanings: to be master; hence, to marry:—have dominion (over), be husband
In the context of one: the words are addressed in poetic fashion to the ten tribes (and not the spiritual Israel of Paul's fashion in Romans)
And His anger at their iniquity -
And because of the fact that they have not obeyed His voice - 

- is it a marriage relationship or a master relationship with which the Lord is setting up from which they will be united?
The NASB, does not take the marriage definition within this context, and as the best word-for-word translation we can get: they use master.  I agree.

There is no basis for translating the ten tribes to the spiritual Israel of the Church or Elect.
There is a basis, however, in a progressive dispensational model; for the Remnant Jews to be brought to the center of the world at Jerusalem to be re-united with the Lord.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/18/2016 at 4:50 PM, WailingWall said:

ZECHARIAH 8 [1] Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] Thus saith the LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts THE HOLY MOUNTAIN.

And Jesus Himself will be there with us

Zechariah spoke of the end-times quite often.  God gave him many visions.
We can see how God's Plan works out for the people Zechariah is speaking to: natural Israelites.
Zechariah did not see the Church however.  That mystery of God's Plan was not shown to him.

In chapter 8, we can see the aftermath of the one 'seven' with all the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) having eliminated man from the earth (Isa 13:12).
Jesus will become the mountain of the world (Dan 2:35).
This is a literal occurrence as well after the Great Earthquake rearranges the topography of the earth so that there are no other mountains, mountain ranges, or islands. (Rev 16:20)
This sets up new weather patterns so that rain is not dumped with mechanical lifting over mountains which then forms set rain forests and deserts.  In the Millennium, rainfall will be dependent upon obedient worship: Zec 14:17-18.

Jesus will make Himself known to the Remnant Jews who escape the Northern invasion of the anti-Christ. (Mt 24:16-20).  These will be sheltered during the second half of the one 'seven' by God (Rev 12:6 & 12:14-16).  On the Day of the Lord which is when Jacob's Troubles begin (Zec 12:2) more will escape: (Zec 14:5).  Some will even survive the whole of the one 'seven' in Jerusalem: Rev 11:13, and for the first time in all of God's desolations, they praise the Lord.

But there are also outlying Jews around the world.  While two-thirds of them will die (Zec 13:9) - some survive.  This is the Remnant.
Zechariah 8 is also about that Remnant.

Zec 8:11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,' declares the Lord of hosts. 12 'For there will be peace for the seed:the vine will yield its fruit, the land will yield its produce and the heavens will give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit all these things. 13 It will come about that just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so I will save you that you may become a blessing. Do not fear; let your hands be strong. '

This is not talking about the Church - which ministers have long preached was not in the Old Testament - but there is a reference in Hosea 6:1-2 which hints at the Church Age...

No.  The Prophets are speaking to God's people: the Jews, natural borne Israel.
This chapter is no different.
And in the end, the Jews will lead the Meek, who also survive the one 'seven' - back to God at Mount Zion.

Zec 8:20 "Thus says the Lord of hosts, ' It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities. 21 The inhabitants of one will go to another, saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts; I will also go." 22 So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. ' 23 Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"

In all the times that God has shown Himself through the Israelites to the nations, they never came to Him.  
Now after the world-wide desolations He has decreed have nearly wiped the earth of man, they come to Him.

There is a sojourn to Mount Zion allowed in the Bible.
There are two sets of days in Daniel 12 between the one 'seven' and the Millennium: the 30 and 45 day periods.
One could well be for travel; the other for the "encampment."

Remember: the earth is inhospitable after the desolations God has decreed.
It is not a fit place to live right now, and the survivors are ragged (Isa 4:1-6).

This fate is not for us.
We will be rescued before the first Trumpet sounds.
We will not endure the terrible day of God's Wrath.
We are rescued before God's Wrath falls.

We will reign with Christ.
And you need not live upon the land you reign.
Jerusalem is only a camp for us, (Rev 20:9); it is not our home.
Ezekiel's visions have no place set aside for immortal and imperishable people living beside mortal, perishable people.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/19/2016 at 7:45 AM, WailingWall said:

LUKE 17 [33-36] Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates  twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

1. We are taken to the "barn" of Heaven when we "receive our inheritance" - paralambamo - i.e. "taken" in Luke 17:33-36.

2. We are seen IN HEAVEN, before the Father in Rev 7:9-17.
We are heard IN HEAVEN in Revelation 19:1-3 as Jesus goes out to fight the final battle at Armageddon.

3. The Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation as told by an Elder.
This fits with what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse for when the Elect, who remain and are still alive as Paul wrote, are gathered up.
This Great Multitude of Saints, both resurrected souls and raptured people, arrive IN HEAVEN BEFORE the first Trumpet of God's Wrath sounds.

4. In a parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 - in the detailed parallel account of Revelation chapters 13-16:
The Harvest happens with Jesus on the clouds.
Immediately AFTER that - two Angels administer God's Wrath of blood and fire - just like the first Trumpet.
This is also just as proscribed on the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament for Israel: blood, fire and smoke (Joel 2:31). 

(Mountains smoke too on the Day of the Lord - Ps 104:32; 144:5.  This could be volcanic eruptions.)
(For America, just imagine if the Yellowstone caldera erupts.  Imagine Mt. St. Helens times 1000.)

5. Even if you place the removal of the God's Elect at the end of the one 'seven' (classical Post-Trib) -
The earth is ruined.  Water is not to be found.  War has destroyed city and farms.   Food is scarce if found at all.
And Israel is not immune from this destruction!

- To put billions of people in a desert region which is the focus of war and God's Wrath defies logical sense.
It is not fit for God's Bride: the Church.
He does not rescue us from the Wrath to come only to set us down in it.
What husband puts his wife is a wasteland for a honeymoon?

God is wiser than that.

There is no legitimate, exegetical interpretation putting the Church in the Millennium on the earth.
Those verses address the harlot wife who must be brought to heel: Israel.
The Millennium is structured so that all of Israel will be saved: because right now they reject their Lord, and the Lord has not forgotten His Promises to save them.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/19/2016 at 11:56 AM, WailingWall said:

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

JOHN 7  [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

We are not allowed to go to heaven but Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also

Saying John 7:34 means we allowed to go to Heaven is an incorrect statement along the same lines as John 3:13.

“You will seek Me, and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come.”

We cannot come to Heaven - on our own power.
The verb: erchomai is in the active voice.
That means the person - you in the plural - is doing the action.
Jesus is saying we do not have the means to go to Heaven: We are not able to come.

Do you know anyone who has decided to "go" to Heaven?
How is he going to do it?
It's impossible.  We cannot do it.

And that's all Jesus is saying.
And the Greek backs it up.
The active voice says the person - you in the plural - are not able (οὐ δύνασθε) to come (ἐλθεῖν) to Heaven.

It says absolutely NOTHING about being taken to Heaven.
In that case, we are not the actors doing the taking - Jesus is.

"Allowed" would be "may not" too... 
That's the difference between "may" and "can".
One is permission - the other is ability.

In John 7:34, Jesus is saying we are not able to go.
That is why "cannot" is used.
It says absolutely NOTHING about not being allowed to go to Heaven.

Jesus takes us to Heaven.
We have no ability to take ourselves there.
We are allowed to be there - the Great Multitude is IN HEAVEN in Rev 7:9-17.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/19/2016 at 7:50 AM, WailingWall said:

I MUST BRING! Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where? Bring to heaven as the raptuist claim? Nope. At the time when Jesus does bring us we will have but ONE SHEPHERD.

When Jesus Returns, He does not gather the Jews.  Why not?
Because they don't believe.  

Remember: the ultimate goal is to be reunited with the Father, and the only way to the Father is through Jesus.
Jesus will unite Jew and Gentile to the Father: eventually... but not at the end of the Age of Man's rule.
The Jews will not have sought Jesus even at the eve of the final battle at Armageddon.

The Day of the Lord is two-fold.

1. For us: it is redemption, salvation, and it is our rescue.
It is a Day when Jesus comes and steals the most valuable thing in all the world from the anti-Christ and Satan: the Elect.

2. But for the unbelieving Jew, it is the Day of Jacob's Trouble.
It is a day of wailing, of battle, and of death.

^{ISA 13:9}See, the day of the LORD is coming
    --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--
  to make the land desolate
    and destroy the sinners within it.

  ^{ISA 13:10}The stars of heaven and their constellations
    will not show their light.
  The rising sun will be darkened
    and the moon will not give its light.

  ^{ISA 13:11}I will punish the world for its evil,
    the wicked for their sins.
  I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
    and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

  ^{ISA 13:12}I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
    more rare than the gold of Ophir.

  ^{ISA 13:13}Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
    and the earth will shake from its place
  at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
    in the day of his burning anger.
_________________________________________________________

  ^{JOEL 2:2}a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and blackness.
  Like dawn spreading across the mountains
    a large and mighty army comes,
  such as never was of old
    nor ever will be in ages to come.

  ^{JOEL 2:3}Before them fire devours,
    behind them a flame blazes.
  Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
    behind them, a desert waste--
    nothing escapes them.

  ^{JOEL 2:4}They have the appearance of horses;
    they gallop along like cavalry.

 

  ^{JOEL 2:5}With a noise like that of chariots
    they leap over the mountaintops,
  like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
    like a mighty army drawn up for battle.

  ^{JOEL 2:6}At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
    every face turns pale.

  ^{JOEL 2:7}They charge like warriors;
    they scale walls like soldiers.
  They all march in line,
    not swerving from their course.

  ^{JOEL 2:8}They do not jostle each other;
    each marches straight ahead.
  They plunge through defenses
    without breaking ranks.

  ^{JOEL 2:9}They rush upon the city;
    they run along the wall.
  They climb into the houses;
    like thieves they enter through the windows.

  ^{JOEL 2:10}Before them the earth shakes,
    the sky trembles,
  the sun and moon are darkened,
    and the stars no longer shine.

  ^{JOEL 2:11}The LORD thunders
    at the head of his army;
  his forces are beyond number,
    and mighty are those who obey his command.
  The day of the LORD is great;
    it is dreadful.
    Who can endure it?
____________________________________________________

But now where are the Jews?
What of them?
____________________________________________________

^{Hos 6:3}Let us acknowledge the LORD; let us press on to acknowledge him. As surely as the sun rises, he will appear; he will come to us like the winter rains, like the spring rains that water the earth."  ⁴"What can I do with you, Ephraim? What can I do with you, Judah? Your love is like the morning mist, like the early dew that disappears.

            The imagery of former and latter rain also are tied to the Day of the Lord in Joel 2 and as a blessing to Israel with the return of the Lord, the autumn rain being mentioned first and repeated in verse 23 as part of God’s ongoing promise fulfillment.  So bearing in mind that the dew comes from God, and the husband coming from a far land, suddenly and unexpectedly, calls on his wife – but gives her scant time to answer; an analogy may be drawn to the Jewish people who literally “miss” Jesus, probably because they are not looking for Him in the guise He arrives.  It will not be until the end of the one ‘seven’ that they finally recognized Him as their Messiah King.

            Viewed in this perspective, the following verses become more poignant than a simple love affair:

^{SoS 5:2}I slept but my heart was awake. Listen! My beloved is knocking: "Open to me, my sister, my darling, my dove, my flawless one. My head is drenched with dew, my hair with the dampness of the night." 

³I have taken off my robe— must I put it on again? I have washed my feet— must I soil them again?  ⁴My beloved thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him.  ⁵I arose to open for my beloved, and my hands dripped with myrrh, my fingers with flowing myrrh, on the handles of the bolt. 

⁶I opened for my beloved, but my beloved had left; he was gone. My heart sank at his departure. I looked for him but did not find him. I called him but he did not answer.  ⁷The watchmen found me as they made their rounds in the city. They beat me, they bruised me; they took away my cloak, those watchmen of the walls!  ⁸Daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you — if you find my beloved, what will you tell him? Tell him I am faint with love.

How is it that the Remnant Jews “miss” Jesus?  Well, they are not “watching” for Him.  Even the watchmen in this story act dishonorably and don’t protect the woman.  For Israel in Old Testament prophecy, the Day of the Lord is not a pleasant affair.  It is not a day of gladness, but of impending doom.  While every eye will see Him as Rev 1:7 states, the mindset of the Remnant Jews is set for self-preservation following advice like this in a companion passage to the second Advent of Christ:

^{Isa 26:19}But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.  ²⁰Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.  ²¹ See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
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Jesus in the Temple

            The one place connected to God from the time of Jacob’s ladder, the place where possibly Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac and the ram was provided by God, Mount Moriah: the Temple Mount – that place where God could be accessed once a year to the ancient Israelites; the place where God will make His home on the earth during the Millennium – was used to erect the worst abomination of all time: the talking image of the anti-Christ.  This great sin is the tripwire for God’s response, allowed to go on through the Great Tribulation to reduce the Elect to just a few (a remnant in themselves), will finally be answered on the second half of the Day of the Lord when God’s Wrath comes.

            In a companion to the verse given in Jacob’s Trouble, Zephaniah remarks upon how the Lord will take revenge for the evil done upon His people:

 

  ^{ZEP 1:12}At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps

and punish those who are complacent,   

who are like wine left on its dregs,   

who think, `The LORD will do nothing,   

either good or bad.'   

The aspect of searching Jerusalem “with lamps” is interesting.  The prophet does not indicate how this will be done.  Lamps bring light into the darkness, but the manner in how God will expose those to the light of His truth is not said, but a clue here is in their complacency. 

The Lord in prophecy acts in two battles which occur on the Day of the Lord: one around Jerusalem when it is invaded by the Lord and the other in the “Valley of Decision”.  The first battle is Jerusalem, and taking it has its prize: the Temple.

The picture of a conquering Lord in the Temple is presented in Ezekiel chapter 9.

^{Eze 9:1}Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring near those who are appointed to execute judgment on the city, each with a weapon in his hand." ²And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.

3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side ⁴and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."

⁵As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. ⁶Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple.

⁷Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. ⁸While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Alas, Sovereign Lord! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?"

⁹He answered me, "The sin of the people of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see. ' ¹⁰So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."

¹¹Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, "I have done as you commanded."

Jesus does not gather the Jews on the Day of the Lord.  He kills those who do not lament what has been going on: the abomination of desolation and the Great Tribulation.

He sends those Jews as He determines into the wilderness for the second half of the one 'seven'.
These join those in Judea who flee at the midpoint.
Some more will survive in Jerusalem after the Great Earthquake - but only a Remnant of the Jews survive to see the Millennium Rule of Christ Jesus.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/19/2016 at 3:27 PM, WailingWall said:

My next question is about the LAST TRUMPET

scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. How do you Rapturist explain this.

Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth from Paradise (the ends of Heaven).

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

 

On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us.

• It is on the Day of the Lord.

• It is on the clouds.

3. The Day of the Lord is when Jesus comes to get us. The Day of the Lord is identified by its signature Sun/moon/star sign:

MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Jesus uses the Sun/moon/star event from prophecy to identify the Day when He comes on the clouds to gather the Elect - just like Paul says in 1Th 4:16-17 which directly relates back to 1Co 15:52.

4. The specific and unique signature sign heralding the Day of the Lord is also revealed by Jesus to John for the sequence of the Day of the Lord in the Seal/Scroll vision given to John:

REV 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore, we can conclude that Day of the Lord happens at the breaking of the sixth Seal.
- The Day of the Lord is when we are gathered up as Paul said in Second Thessalonians.

- Jesus said that after the Day of the Lord sign comes, the Elect will be gathered.

- Therefore, in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11, the Great Multitude are the result of that gathering Harvest of Saints out of the then-shortened time of the Great Tribulation.

- This claim is buttressed by the eyewitness testimony of an Elder who says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, which echoes exactly the order Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse.

The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth.

•          Only after the sixth Seal is broken is the seventh Seal broken.

•          Then, and only then, when all the Seals have been broken, can the Scroll, where “desolations have been decreed” from 2500 years ago (Dan 9:26), be read, and only then does the First Trumpet of seven even sound.

•          And then, and only then, do we see “desolations” of Biblical proportions inflicted upon creation which in turn creates hardship for the wicked left upon the earth.

The Church is not to endure these conditions:

Rom 2:8 But for those who are self–seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.  9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

1Th 1:10 …and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead —Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self–controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.  9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.  10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet.

•          The Bible never labels the seventh Trumpet as the Last Trumpet.

•          Instead, the “Last Trumpet,” as a named trumpet, is associated with the opening of Rosh ha-Shanah, the fall time Holy Day also known as the Festival of Trumpets. 

•          It is the first of many different trumpet soundings which occur over the next two days of this special Holy “Day” observance.

•          The “Last Trumpet” in Jewish ritual observance, of which Paul was schooled and practiced, is the mirror horn from the blowing of the “First Trumpet” sounded at the Festival of First Fruits in the spring.

The Last Trumpet in end-time prophecy happens after:

1. The one ‘seven’ starts

2. The first half oppression

3. The midpoint abomination(s)

4. The Great Tribulation

It happens on:

The Day of the Lord

It happens before:

1. Any of God’s Wrath goes forth which begins with fire (and the resultant smoke) on the Day of the Lord (second half) – first Trumpet

2. The rest of the Trumpet Judgments (which take time)

3. The final Bowl Judgments (which are the third Woe which is never delineated in the Seal chronology) which complete the one ‘seven’ as per Daniel 9:27.