QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

Salty · December 20, 2016

20 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

If you do not read another's explanation to put the relevant quoted material in context - then you cannot say I failed to address your specific allegation that Revelation 7:9-17 is Millennium in its timeframe.

I tried to break it down for you, but you won't respond in return. Merely repeating the initial charge is hardly debate.

Now then, just to reveal how blatantly wrong your assumption there is, the relevant Scripture is 'within' the Revelation 7 Chapter itself!

Failure to address that Scripture within Rev.7, which is what the original discussion was about, is a de facto failure to address the relevant Scripture presented there first. It is especially error to do that with the Rev.7 example since it emphatically gives evidence that John was seeing the "great multitude" in the future Millennium timing! Even the manifesting of the 'waters of life' are mentioned in those verses which is a clear indicator of Millennial timing.

But you just closed the Book on Rev.7 against that evidence presented there through John and went and tried to make up evidence elsewhere in Revelation to TRY and support the pre-trib rapture theory of men's doctrines, showing how spiritually drunken on that doctrine you are.

Salty · December 20, 2016

19 hours ago, OneLight said:

The first time the term wrath is mentioned in Revelation is in Revelation 6:16 when we read about the wrath of the Lamb after the 6th seal is opened.

and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Then we read in Revelation 15 when the bowls are said to be completing the wrath of God. I believe His wrath begins with the 6th seal, but grow exponentially worse from one form of deployment to the other. If sinners understand the time of His wrath, there can be no denial if it is true or not, otherwise, we would of been told that the time of His wrath had not begun.

The 7 signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse are the signs of His Revelation. You can follow the Seals in the signs Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13. There is some overlapping, but the signs are all there, the last one being His coming on the last day.

This is why the 6 Seal shows Jesus' coming, as does the 7th Trumpet with the descriptions immediately after it in Rev.11, and the 7th Vial with Jesus still warning His Church on earth on the 6th Vial saying that He comes "as a thief" and for them to keep their garments.

Not only that, but He especially marked the events of the last 3 Trumpets by attaching 3 Woe periods to them, showing us those are the most important events to be watching.

Thus the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are mostly parallels to each other, and not sequential sets like the Seals all occur first, then the Trumpets, and then the Vials.

Of course the Darbyites are not going to change their wrongful view of the order the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials, because they have worked hard to fashion an order for them to fit their false pre-trib rapture doctrine. Apparently, many brethren not on the pre-trib doctrines have been wrongly following their supposed order too.

Marcus O'Reillius · December 20, 2016

7 hours ago, Salty said:

Now then, just to reveal how blatantly wrong your assumption there is, the relevant Scripture is 'within' the Revelation 7 Chapter itself!

It's not the Millennium. Jesus' revelation of what is in store for the Great Multitude do not change the fact that this is the first instance John has seen then IN HEAVEN and the Wrath of God has not yet come in this linear narrative which sets up the broad overview of the end-times.

They are dressed in robes they have cleaned in the blood of the Lamb, standing before the Father on the Throne, in His Temple, in Heaven - which is the same scene that John reports in chapters 4 & 5. The Scroll is still in the PROCESS of being OPENED.

To say I assume and dismiss all the other evidence pointing to a here-and-now presentation of the Great Multitude - who have JUST COME OUT OF the Great Tribulation - and then ASSUME on your part that because they will do certain things, that they are doing them THEN - when they're just standing there holding palm fronds - is deliciously ironic in light of your accusation of assumption on my part.

Marcus O'Reillius · December 20, 2016

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

Now you see this is where Marcus is deliberately ignoring scriptures

Now you see this is where inchrist is deliberately taking Scripture out of context.

And none of them dictate that we receive them in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 40 is addressed to Israel, and is in the time of the Sabbath Millennium with no warfare.

Marcus O'Reillius · December 20, 2016

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

No scrolling of the sky is no sign.

Nonsense. It is a visual presentation, a sign of the miraculous by God because skies do not "scroll" by themselves.

When the world sees the scrolling of the sky, they will know it is FROM God.

That's what signs do: inform.

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

However....For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Would certainly be a sign.

No, that is a simile.

His coming will be like lightning.

This is why I do not think your work is very scholarly.

Salty · December 21, 2016

14 hours ago, inchrist said:

Just a slight correction.Marcus is prewrath.....his entire arguements are copies of marvin rosenthal, hence he is battling with Rev 7 to be millennium vision as marvin rosenthal offers no rebuttal for it.

Got it.

Salty · December 21, 2016

7 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

It's not the Millennium. Jesus' revelation of what is in store for the Great Multitude do not change the fact that this is the first instance John has seen then IN HEAVEN and the Wrath of God has not yet come in this linear narrative which sets up the broad overview of the end-times.

They are dressed in robes they have cleaned in the blood of the Lamb, standing before the Father on the Throne, in His Temple, in Heaven - which is the same scene that John reports in chapters 4 & 5. The Scroll is still in the PROCESS of being OPENED.

To say I assume and dismiss all the other evidence pointing to a here-and-now presentation of the Great Multitude - who have JUST COME OUT OF the Great Tribulation - and then ASSUME on your part that because they will do certain things, that they are doing them THEN - when they're just standing there holding palm fronds - is deliciously ironic in light of your accusation of assumption on my part.

There is NO proof of a rapture to Heaven there, period. That idea has to be added.

There's no excuse for not understanding the events to occur on the very last day of this world with God's consuming fire burning the works of man off the surface of this earth WHILE protecting His servants at the exact same moment. This is why we are given the view in Daniel 3 about the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo came out of that hot fiery furnace without clothes even smelling of smoke, because there was a 4th Man in the furnace with them Who had the appearance of The Son of God.

Isa 33:10-17
10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up Myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge My might.

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
KJV

In the above God contrasts the wicked vs. His servants. The idea is the same with His consuming fire, it won't harm us, but it will devour the wicked.

That is the consuming fire that Peter spoke of that's to occur on the last day of this world:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

The Greek word for "elements" there does not mean earthly material matter. It means a world order, man's works on the earth.

This also is what Paul spoke of in Hebrews 12 for the last day:

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."

27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

Because many preachers fear losing their congregations, they are careful to avoid talking about us being in the midst of this consuming fire event on the last day of this world when Jesus comes and we alive are changed at the twinkling of an eye during it, while the wicked are burned up, like those of Zech.14 involving the plague of fire (which is this event above). We do not have to fear that event, for The Lord Jesus is with us. He is not angry at us. We do not have to be raptured to Heaven to escape it.

Even with examples of God's OT prophet Elijah, God brought His consuming fire down out of Heaven right in the midst of Elijah and burned up the soldiers who had come to seize him (2 Kings 1). And among 150 prophets of Baal, Elijah commanded fire from Heaven to come down and burn up the wetted sacrifice on the altar, and the water logged wood around it, and even dried up all the water Elijah had pour on the wood and sacrifice (1 Kings 18). The Message? God can be very, very accurate with His consuming fire! He can aim it right in the midst of us with the wicked standing right next to us, and it won't harm us, just as happened with Elijah.

Salty · December 21, 2016