iamlamad Posted February 9, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2017 inchrist wrote: iamlamad wrote: Quote Of course we don't read anything like this at the 7th trumpet, because there is NO RESURRECTION at the 7th trumpet. Flase. This is exactly where this scripture needs to be 11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: One doesnt need to move this backwards to some midpoint you have concocted. You missed one very important detail: although it is written in chapter 11, the story of the two witnesses does not really END there. Verses 4 through 13 are written as a parenthesis and have no part of John's chronology. Although it might first appear that they die and are resurrected just before the midpoint, that is not when they die. They BEGIN their testimony in verse 3, which is only 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week. Then continue their testimony while the city is being trampled, while the woman is fleeing, while the woman is protected, and while the Beast has his 42 months: all these are parallel times, and all go to the 7th vial that ends the week. Therefore the REAL time the two witnesses die will be just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. From the midpoint (or just before as in the trampling and witnessing, and just after for the rest) 42 months of trampling 1260 days of witnessing 1260 days of fleeing and protection 3 1/2 years of protection 42 months of trampling. All of these times run concurrently through the last half of the week. All end at or near the 7th vial that ends the week. So the two witnesses testify and then after their 1260 days are finished, they are killed - just 3 1/2 days from the end of the week. They lay dead those 3 1/2 days and rise up at the end of the 3 1/2 days, which will be exactly at the 7th vial. Did you notice, there is a great earthquake when they rise? Did you notice there is a great earthquake at the 7th vial? It is the very same earthquake! Trying to make the 1260 days of testifying play out and end before the 7th trumpet will simply not work. That would place the fleeing (12:6) some 1260 days plus after the midpoint of the week! NO! NO! NO! Jesus said they will flee when they see the abomination and Daniel tells us that is what divides the week. Therefore, it is the 7th trumpet that divides the week, and marks the time (in heaven) that the man of sin enters the temple on earth and declares he is god - thus stopping the daily sacrifices. He defiles the temple, so before sacrifices can resume, the temple must be cleansed. But it cannot be for the Beast will not allow it. From the 7th trumpet to 12:6, the fleeing, may be a second or two of real time. From the 7th trumpet to Michael going after Satan? Probably even less time. Michael has been patiently waiting for that 7th trumpet for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 9, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2017 inchrist wrote: When declared in scriptures that the resurrection is to occur at the last trumpet. That is exactly what you expect to see and thats exactly what you find at the 7th trumpet, where a literal ressurection is taking place. You are confusing trumpets! People have been trying to tie Paul's "last trump" to the 7th trumpet or Revelation for centuries. No one has ever successfully done it, and no one ever will. They are a completely different series of trumpets and there are no scriptures that tie them together. Yes, the 7th trumpet is certainly the last OF THAT SERIES sounded by angels. But it will certainly not be the last trumpet sound ever to be heard on earth! God is not going to send angels to take every trumpet off the earth, and God will not remove the thoughts of trumpets out of people's minds so another can never be created. Such a thing is silly. Therefore the 7th trumpet in revelation is the last of that series of trumpets. And Paul's last trump will be the last of a DIFFERENT series - perhaps at the feast of trumpets - the last final blast that ends the feast of trumpets. I personally believe the rapture will occur at the feast of trumpets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted February 9, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2017 At the last trumpet for those who walk with the Lord .... and He will immortalize them as Paul tells Next will come the 7 judgment trumpets of the tribulation And last will come the next one .... for Israel .... for those of Israel's mortals who will be come believers and saved as mortals for the Lord's millennial kingdom just after the days of the tribulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 11, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2017 On 2/8/2017 at 6:25 PM, iamlamad said: Have you considered that there was a great earthquake when God resurrected the elders of the Old Covenant when Jesus rose? Have you considered there will be a great earthquake when the two witnesses rise? (it is not so much the two witnesses that will cause this earthquake; it is that it will happen at the 7th vial, and I am convinced that is when ALL of the Old Testament saints rise. Can you imagine? Keep in mind, this will include those righteous before the flood. Some of the atoms or quarks that made up their bodies could be thousands of miles from each other, or could be a mile deep: but in a split second, God will bring them all together. This is what will cause the great earthquake at the 7th vial: the mother of all earthquakes! I know about these earthquakes as I have read them in scripture. Please explain how can you say that the raising of the Two Witnesses and the earthquake that follows is at the 7th vile/bowl? Here is scripture placed in the proper context. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.” Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. Are you of the belief that you can place the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls/Vials in any order you want to prove a theory? To quote a question you asked earlier in this thread "I have a silly question: why don't you follow the Chronology laid out for us in Revelation?" On 2/8/2017 at 6:25 PM, iamlamad said: This is why I believe the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the rapture, an event that is sure to cause a worldwide earthquake. Since the "sudden destruction" of Paul comes the very moment those alive and in Christ get caught up - it seems a perfect fit. The dead in Christ rise, causing a great earthquake, and a split second later those alive and in Christ are caught up - while those living in the darkness get left behind and suffer this great earthquake. Yes, Paul clearly states this will happen at the last trump as shown in 1 Thessalonians 5:3. There is no mention of a trumpet at the sixth seal. Consider that the last trumpet mentioned being blown is at the seventh trumpet. It is not a perfect fit as it takes a lot of twisting to make it sound like any kind of fit. On 2/8/2017 at 6:25 PM, iamlamad said: As for the Thessalonians, this was the Holy Spirit speaking to "the church." It is for the church for any time and all time, and the church anywhere and everywhere. The rapture event will not be only some from Thessaloniki! Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians, not the world, as I stated. Can and will the Holy Spirit teach us the meaning today, yes. Let's be accurate and not paint with a wide brush. On 2/8/2017 at 6:25 PM, iamlamad said: Do we in general feel at peace and in safety? I certainly do. However, perhaps those in israel don't. But suppose they win this next war, and win it BIG. Could it be that a 7 year agreement is done between them and the Muslims? Could it be that that agreement gives them peace and safety (for a while)? I think the rapture is the trigger for the start of the Day, because I think that is what Paul is teaching us in 1 Thes. 5. I think the DAY begins at the 6th seal and with the first trumpet judgment that will soon follow. So sometime between the 7th seal that offically starts the 70th week, and the 6th seal, it seems some kind of covenant will be agreed to and signed. I think instead of timing the rapture by this covenant, it should rather be tied to the Day of the Lord As Paul wrote, which is saying the Wrath of God. I would even say the rapture is the trigger for His wrath starting. By the way, I still have much to learn about Revelation. I long to understand the Beast coming up out of the bottomless pit. For now I am convinced it is Satan himself. Actually, no I do not feel peace and safety is part of this life. Do you not watch the signs of the times? Neither do I believe that there will be a big war that brings about the covenant, but the threat of a war, which, at the end of the Great Tribulation, will happen. On 2/8/2017 at 6:25 PM, iamlamad said: I think the rapture is the trigger for the start of the Day, because I think that is what Paul is teaching us in 1 Thes. 5. I think the DAY begins at the 6th seal and with the first trumpet judgment that will soon follow. So sometime between the 7th seal that offically starts the 70th week, and the 6th seal, it seems some kind of covenant will be agreed to and signed. I think instead of timing the rapture by this covenant, it should rather be tied to the Day of the Lord As Paul wrote, which is saying the Wrath of God. I would even say the rapture is the trigger for His wrath starting. By the way, I still have much to learn about Revelation. I long to understand the Beast coming up out of the bottomless pit. For now I am convinced it is Satan himself. What Day are you talking about? The Day of the Lord is His return, not the Rapture. You put too much weight on the statements of those who do not believe when you are trying to determine the timing of the rapture. I did notice that you continue to use the words "I think", which is good. Continue your studies and more will be revealed to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 11, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2017 On 2/9/2017 at 11:40 AM, Daniel 11:36 said: At the last trumpet for those who walk with the Lord .... and He will immortalize them as Paul tells Next will come the 7 judgment trumpets of the tribulation And last will come the next one .... for Israel .... for those of Israel's mortals who will be come believers and saved as mortals for the Lord's millennial kingdom just after the days of the tribulation I have always asked people why they do not see that it is possible for the Last Trump in 1 Thessalonians 5 cannot be the 7th Trumpet judgment, as that is the last time a Trumpet is blown in Revelation. Every answer given was a lot of jumping around in scripture, taking verses out of context. Can you give me your reasons why by scripture without forcing me to do gymnastics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 12, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) OneLight wrote, I know about these earthquakes as I have read them in scripture. Please explain how can you say that the raising of the Two Witnesses and the earthquake that follows is at the 7th vile/bowl? Here is scripture placed in the proper context. You are missing something. No one believes any of the other mentions of the 3 1/2 years is played out in the verse or even chapter of mention. And neither is the 1260 days of prophesying meant to be played out or take place in the chapter of mention: all five of these are for events that start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week. Here is how that scripture must be read: 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. ... 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.) 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. John's Chronology is as follows: 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded... John did not have convenient Parentheses marks as we do. The point is, the two witnesses will show up just 3 1/2 days before the abomination that will divide the week. They show up then because the man of sin shows up then. He arrives in Jerusalem so he will be there to enter the temple in 3 1/2 more days. The three days are over, and it is time for the 7th trumpet, which will "mark" the exact midpoint of the week. You will notice in 12:6 those in Judea are fleeing, exactly as Jesus told them to. It is simple: in verses 4-13 John takes us on a side journey down the last 1260 days for the two witnesses only, and as a parenthesis. They show up 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, testify for 1260 days, which takes them to 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. They are killed and lay dead for those 3 1/2 days. Then they rise up at the 7th vial and there is an awesome earthquake. I think all the Old Testament saints rise then. Edited February 12, 2017 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 12, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2017 OneLight wrote, Are you of the belief that you can place the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls/Vials in any order you want to prove a theory? To quote a question you asked earlier in this thread "I have a silly question: why don't you follow the Chronology laid out for us in Revelation?" I am of the belief that John wrote in the exact order things happen. The exception is parenthesis and prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 12, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2017 OneLight wrote, Yes, Paul clearly states this will happen at the last trump as shown in 1 Thessalonians 5:3. There is no mention of a trumpet at the sixth seal. Consider that the last trumpet mentioned being blown is at the seventh trumpet. It is not a perfect fit as it takes a lot of twisting to make it sound like any kind of fit. There is no mention of the rapture ANYWHERE in Revelation. Yet, John saw the raptured church in the throne room in chapter 7 - before he even begins the 70th week of Daniel in his narrative. Sorry, the 7th trumpet is the last trump of a different series. The truth is, the rapture just before the 6th seal fits 1 thes. 5 perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 12, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2017 OneLight wrote, Actually, no I do not feel peace and safety is part of this life. Do you not watch the signs of the times? Neither do I believe that there will be a big war that brings about the covenant, but the threat of a war, which, at the end of the Great Tribulation, will happen. I will be in that group seen in Revelation 7 - the group too large to number. I will not see the days of God's wrath. I do think Israel will be at war soon, and other nations will join in. Perhaps we should call it Word War 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 12, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) OneLight wrote, What Day are you talking about? The Day of the Lord is His return, not the Rapture. You put too much weight on the statements of those who do not believe when you are trying to determine the timing of the rapture. I did notice that you continue to use the words "I think", which is good. Continue your studies and more will be revealed to you. You are mistaken: the day of the Lord is mentioned many times in the Old Testament and not one of them is about Christ's coming. it is about destroying the world and the sinners in the world. The trumpet judgments are very much a part of THE DAY and His wrath. I do not rely on others for my determination of when the rapture will be. It is my study alone. If one understands 1 thes. 5, they will know the rapture comes before the DAy of the Lord. I think many have a wrong view of "the day of the Lord." They assume Christ brings THE DAY with Him. No, He does not return to fight until chapter 19, after the 70th week has finished. But the DAY will begin right where John said it: at the 6th seal. So THE DAY is not His return and it is not the rapture. But the rapture will be the trigger for the Day. Edited February 12, 2017 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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