1Thes.4 = Day of the Lord

[iamlamad]

On 6/3/2017 at 3:01 AM, inchrist said:

Wrong interpretation

Let it  be noted  Hebrews 12:26 (quoting Haggai 2:6), in which the Lord distinctly promises,

Yet once more {not twice} I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

That fire in Rev 20:7 can be understood by observing Leviticus 10:1&2

Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.

Clearly the earth wasnt destroyed when this happend., was it?

You have no evidence of the earth to be destroyed at the end of the Millennium

One must then ignore the purging of sin that is happening to heaven and earth in the 7seals and utter destruction that occurs, unless you wish to suggest the 7 seals only occur towards the end of the Millennium?

When God comes with the white throne judgment, it is written that heaven and earth fled away and NO PLACE was found for them.

How do you read this verse?

[Diaste]

On 6/3/2017 at 10:14 AM, OneLight said:

No, they are not the same event.  You see similarities and you decide they are the same.  Instead of looking at the similarities, look at what separates them.  I the 6th seal, it is the world proclaiming that they believe Gods wrath has come.  In the 7th trumpet, the proclamation comes from twenty-four elders.  They are not the same events nor are they at the same time.  In the 6th seal, the confirmation of the world is in the present tense:

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

At the 7th Trumpet, the proclamation is in the past tense:

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

If they were the same, the 6th seal would read had come, or the 7th trumpet would read has come.  Can you see the differences?

Actually both say the exact same thing, "...wrath has come..." meaning 'arrived'. Doesnt matter if its proclaimed by men or elders or Tralfamadorians, the focus is the moment of wrath, and it has arrived. Of course the nation's 'were angry'. Now in a dramatic event the nation's fear as the long prophesied wrath of God is about to fall. 

[Diaste]

On 6/3/2017 at 10:22 AM, OneLight said:

When it comes to a specific prophecy, it does matter how is it written, otherwise, any change will bring change to the prophecy.  That is very different then if John came before Mark, or if James came before Romans.

It looks like you are in for a very long time of research and study if you really seek to understand how scripture was written and from which codex it was written from.  The first wall you will come upon is the division between which codex to follow, which to use and which not to use.  IF you follow through, realize you will not only have some questions answered, but you will also have many more questions develop along the way.  This is not something someone can do lightly.  Praying that you do not give up and become discouraged if you decide to take upon yourself this line of studies.

I will rely on the one version that king James compiled and none other. God oversaw this effort and has preserved his truth in this compilation.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

Ive addressed it here

Revelation 20:11-15 concerning satans status and the wicked at the end of the Millennium is given only to complete the discussion of events which occur at the beginning of the Millennium.

When God states  For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;

God creates New Heaven and New Earth through Christ, why do you think God makes everything subject to Christ in the Millennium?

Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world to be its savior (I Peter 1:20). In the end He will hand it all back over to God, packaged, restored and redeemed.

How do you read these verses?

2 Peter 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Or perhaps this verse?

 

Hebrews 12:26 

At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."

 

"By the time John saw God sitting on His throne, Heaven and Earth had already passed away during the trumpets and bowls, anyone reading Revelation can see the purging of sin that is occuring "

john saw God on the throne in Rev. 4 when He was called up. that was in 95 AD. So much for your theory!

Christ creates a new heavens and new earth during the Millennium. When Christ hands everything over to Father, heaven and earth has been perfected......there is nothing for God to recreate.

Wow! So Satan is allowed out of prison (so to speak) on the NEW EARTH? You must be dreaming! The New earth will be free of the curse and free of sin.

Why on earth and in heaven would God have to destroy what Christ has handed over which has been perfected?

This is a good question. All we know is that it will be sometime after death is conquered when Christ gives it all back to the Father. So that would have to be after the battle of gog and magog at the end of the 1000 year reign - for they surely die! And that is when John tells us there will be a NEW heaven and earth. So your question is a non sequitur. Christ will hand over a NEW heaven and earth which will not have to be destroyed.

Isaiah 65 &66 is in perfect sync with Revelation chronoligical order.

Except in books like Isaiah one verse or even a part of one verse may be thousands of years off from another part of the verse. Revelation is not written like that.

2 Peter 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.

In Peter's verse, I consider the Day of the Lord to be an extended period of time, starting with the 6th seal and continuing on through the Millennium. God has not really pinpointed the time He will renew this earth will fire. Remember, Paul wrote that our works would be tried by fire. At times I suspect this fire will come during Daniel's 70th week, but I cannot prove it one way or another - yet.

Hebrews 12:26  The heavens will shake at the 6th seal.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Actually both say the exact same thing, "...wrath has come..." meaning 'arrived'. Doesnt matter if its proclaimed by men or elders or Tralfamadorians, the focus is the moment of wrath, and it has arrived. Of course the nation's 'were angry'. Now in a dramatic event the nation's fear as the long prophesied wrath of God is about to fall. 

According to John's narrative, it is "about to fall" at the 6th seal. Why do you suppose they wish to hide from God? They know THE DAY is coming, and perhaps has started.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

6Th seal and Trumpets havnt started then, you taken what I said out of its context....so much for your rebuttal.

No its being created to be free from sin and free from the curse....think now before you answer.

No its actually an important question, because God does not detroy something that is redeemed. 

Perhaps look up the word New that john uses.

Prove it.

Actually he has, you notice in Revelation specific trumpets and bowls and even the 6th seal....right up to Rev19.....you get a whole lot of what?

Then in the Millennium....do you see any shaking still carrying on?

You wrote, "By the time John saw God sitting on His throne, Heaven and Earth had already passed away during the trumpets and bowls..."

Sorry, I guess I just did not understand your meaning. So many here wish to rearrange Revelation to fit their theories. The only place I could think of where John wrote of seeing God on the throne was in Rev 4.  So now I am at a total loss for your meaning. Please expand this some so I can understand.

its being created to be free from sin and free from the curse.  Lost again: when then do you see it created? John writes of the new heaven and new earth after the great white throne judgment, which will come after the end of the 1000 year reign, which of course will come after the end of the 70th week of Daniel. Are you challenging John's chronology?

its actually an important question    You had written: Christ creates a new heavens and new earth during the Millennium.

Sorry, but now that I think about it, I see what you are talking about. When Christ sets up His millennial Kingdom, the lamb will lay down with the lion, meaning, the curse will be lifted. But that will be the curse lifted from off the old, but renewed earth. But even then, with the curse lifted, when Satan is released, sin comes again, and death comes again. And more fire to kill them.

But it will still be the OLd heaven and earth, but an earth that was purged with fire. At the great white throne judgment, which will come after the 1000 years, John writes that the old heaven and earth (yes even the one where the curse was lifted) disappears and no place was found from them. then, after the judgment, God will create a new heaven and new earth. This is the way John wrote it.

As for new:

1. new

   1. as respects form

      1. recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn

   2. as respects substance

      1. of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

As I have believed, it will then be a completely new heaven and earth, for the old ones disappeared.

I was thinking of Isaiah 61:1. I believe anyone reading that verse in the days of Isaiah would never suspect there would be 2000 years between words of that verse.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

According to John's narrative, it is "about to fall" at the 6th seal. Why do you suppose they wish to hide from God? They know THE DAY is coming, and perhaps has started.

Exactly. The same verbiage as the 7th trump. Rev 11:18 "... and thy wrath is come,".  "...is come..." meaning existing. 6th seal and 7th trump are the same unless we are to to conclude there are two days of wrath coming some several months apart. An idea that strains the text as well as logic.

[OneLight]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

Actually both say the exact same thing, "...wrath has come..." meaning 'arrived'. Doesnt matter if its proclaimed by men or elders or Tralfamadorians, the focus is the moment of wrath, and it has arrived. Of course the nation's 'were angry'. Now in a dramatic event the nation's fear as the long prophesied wrath of God is about to fall. 

Look at the context.  In the 6th seal, they are running for cover, meaning present tense.  Now look at the 7th trumpet, the nations were angry.  It is spoken in the past tense.  They are two different time frames.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and lost focus on my quoted reply. 

[OneLight]

On 6/3/2017 at 11:52 AM, Diaste said:

I know for certain that all the knowledge God has for us is perfectly preserved in full form in scripture. What I meant was that finding the manuscripts was a centuries long task and at this point I cannot be certain that all the events are in the order in which they occurred. I had heard stories of the early church in possession of only a single page of one of Paul's letters. So to compile the NT the letters had to be tracked down. Does the order of the epistles really matter?  What if only parts of Isaiah were found in one century and more found in later century? This is how a great many manuscripts were compiled. No one could reasonably declare that he wrote one section a week earlier than the other, except some other historical document shed some light. I know this has occurred but our knowledge is incomplete. We find new insights into the ancient biblical texts frequently, and dates are always being disputed. It's possible we will never be fully certain. That being said I do think Rev is in order, as written, as two copies were found complete. I think in 3rd century AD from what I read.

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 6/3/2017 at 0:22 PM, OneLight said:

When it comes to a specific prophecy, it does matter how is it written, otherwise, any change will bring change to the prophecy.  That is very different then if John came before Mark, or if James came before Romans.

It looks like you are in for a very long time of research and study if you really seek to understand how scripture was written and from which codex it was written from.  The first wall you will come upon is the division between which codex to follow, which to use and which not to use.  IF you follow through, realize you will not only have some questions answered, but you will also have many more questions develop along the way.  This is not something someone can do lightly.  Praying that you do not give up and become discouraged if you decide to take upon yourself this line of studies.

I will rely on the one version that king James compiled and none other. God oversaw this effort and has preserved his truth in this compilation.

You were addressing finding the manuscripts and wondering if they were written correctly in what we call the bible.  I suggested you had a long road ahead of you if you were going to examine the codex manuscripts for yourself.  Then you say you will rely on the KJV and no other version.  I am confused as the KJV has the same order of events as the NKJV I use; the same placement of books ... what are you getting at here?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Exactly. The same verbiage as the 7th trump. Rev 11:18 "... and thy wrath is come,".  "...is come..." meaning existing. 6th seal and 7th trump are the same unless we are to to conclude there are two days of wrath coming some several months apart. An idea that strains the text as well as logic.

I guess you could believe that if you choose. I don't. Just remember, in the Greek, there is no timing information in these verbs. So I agree with you on "existing." Common sense tells me to believe His wrath begins at the 6th seal, and continues on through the entire 70th week and probably builds as the week progresses and few of any people repent.

If you get the picture - a scroll sealed with seals so that it cannot be unrolled and read until the seals are broken - it makes perfect sense that no trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are broken, making it simply impossible that the 7th trump is sounded when a seal is broken. As I see it, what we read starting in Rev. 8, after the 7th seal is broken, is what was written INSIDE the scroll.

We both know, the book was created in a certain order, by the true Author, the Holy Spirit. He just used John to write. I don't believe the Holy Spirit was trying to confuse us in the book, by purposely putting things in a wrong order. Much of the book is numbered so we would NOT try to rearrange.

We may not be so far apart.

Edited June 6, 2017 by iamlamad