1Thes.4 = Day of the Lord

[Keras]

11 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Some people just do not take the scriptures at full value .... for some reason

.... what are you doing? 

I asked a simple question: In the scriptures that you have posted to prove the rapture, where do they say anyone will be taken up to live in heaven.?

What I am doing; is disproving the 'rapture theory'.  It is unbiblical and isn't what God actually does plan for His people.

[iamlamad]

On 2/8/2017 at 8:39 AM, WailingWall said:

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

 ZEPH. 1 –  voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

 ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

You were doing fine until your last sentence. John disagrees with you. He puts the start of the DAY in Rev. 6 at the 6th seal. BEfore the end of the tribulation period there will come:

the 7th seal

The 7 trumpet judgments

The 7 vial judgments

And finally, AFTER the 70th week has ended:

The marriage and supper in heaven

Jesus coming to earth in great power and brightness to establish His kingdom.

[iamlamad]

On 4/20/2017 at 8:18 PM, Keras said:

Is this meant to be proof of a rapture to heaven? If so where exactly do those verses say that God will take His people to heaven?

Inferences and assumptions are just not good enough, as the Bible does tell us very plainly all about important things, like salvation and how we should live.  Also, all the prophets say what God actually does plan for those who believe in Him and it does not include a removal from the earth, Eventually,  God will come down to earth and dwell with mankind. Rev 21:4

Where will Jesus be during the 70th week? Wherever He is, WE will be. Where did Jesus go to build our mansions and palaces and abodes? Of course, HEAVEN. When He comes to get us, He will take us to where these mansions are.  This is no assumption: it is written in black and white and red.

Where is UP? Could it be where the clouds are? How can you say no removal from earth if we are raised to be with Him in the clouds? Do you imagine we will spend the 7 years in the clouds? No! He will take us to the homes He has prepared.

After the 7 years, we will return to earth.

If you wish to stay behind or be left behind, fine, but don't try to convince others to ignore the escape God has planned so that you will not be alone. What part of 1 thes. 4:17 don't you believe?

[iamlamad]

On 4/19/2017 at 10:33 PM, Keras said:

There is a lot of confusion over what a Day is.  I agree that one heavenly day to the Lord is the same as 1000 earth years. Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8

But the forthcoming terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath will be just one earthly day. Isaiah 47:9, Zechariah 3:9, Psalms 50:1-3 +  Otherwise nothing would survive His fiery wrath. As it is, practically the entire Middle East will be devastated, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 1-:18, Amos 1 & 2 and the rest of the world will never be the same again. It will set the scene for all that is prophesied to happen before Jesus Returns.

Nowhere in scripture does it say God will rapture His people to heaven.  You are making a false assumption and adding to Revelation with your belief. Not a good idea according to Revelation 22:18-19

Why do you keep writing "no where in scripture?"  Better you say "I cannot find it in scripture." It is there. Millions see it and believe it. However, he is very wrong on the Day of the Lord being only one day.

[iamlamad]

On 4/19/2017 at 1:45 PM, Spock said:

I think the Day of the Lord begins when Gods wrath is unleashed.  When does it begin? According to Rev 6, it appears it begins right after the seals. I believe this is why there is silence in Heaven for an hour. The whole world is taking a deep breath because now our patient God is about to speak and it won't be pretty. 

Oh, and for those who want more, the rapture precedes Gods wrath. Rapture in Rev 7 and Wrath begins pretty much with trumpet one. 

FINALLY! Someone here that can READ! Hallelujah! It is just as you said, just as John wrote, and just as the Holy Spirit dictated: the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal and with the first trumpet judgment - OR with the 6th seal itself.

[Diaste]

On 4/20/2017 at 7:18 PM, Keras said:

Is this meant to be proof of a rapture to heaven? If so where exactly do those verses say that God will take His people to heaven?

Inferences and assumptions are just not good enough, as the Bible does tell us very plainly all about important things, like salvation and how we should live.  Also, all the prophets say what God actually does plan for those who believe in Him and it does not include a removal from the earth, Eventually,  God will come down to earth and dwell with mankind. Rev 21:4

Yes. Jesus returns, gathers us, pours out God's wrath, and when that ends after some 5-6 months, New Jerusalem comes down and we dwell in the city with Christ for 1000 years. There is a scripture that does say an enormous multitude is around the throne, which would be in heaven, as the elders are present and also the four living creatures. But, even though this would be the case it's not permanent as we rule with Jesus for 1000 years, and that's on earth from New Jerusalem. 

There is no early exit as you correctly point out. We are here until immediately prior to the Day of the Lord.

[OneLight]

25 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes. Jesus returns, gathers us, pours out God's wrath, and when that ends after some 5-6 months, New Jerusalem comes down and we dwell in the city with Christ for 1000 years. There is a scripture that does say an enormous multitude is around the throne, which would be in heaven, as the elders are present and also the four living creatures. But, even though this would be the case it's not permanent as we rule with Jesus for 1000 years, and that's on earth from New Jerusalem. 

There is no early exit as you correctly point out. We are here until immediately prior to the Day of the Lord.

The New Jerusalem does not appear until after the 1000 year reign of Christ , the Great White Throne Judgment, the New Heaven and the New Earth.  Revelation 20 and 21.  It will not come down and dwell in the city with Christ for 1000 years.

Satan Bound 1,000 Years

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. ² He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; ³ and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a^[a] thousand years. ⁵ But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

⁷ Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. ⁹ They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. ¹⁰ The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where^[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment

¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,^[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. ¹⁴ Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.^{[d] 15} And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

All Things Made New

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. ² Then I, John,^[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

⁵ Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,^[b] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

⁶ And He said to me, “It is done!^[c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. ⁷ He who overcomes shall inherit all things,^[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. ⁸ But the cowardly, unbelieving,^[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

The New Jerusalem

⁹ Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me^[f] and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”^{[g] 10} And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy^[h] Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ¹¹ having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. ¹² Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: ¹³ three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

¹⁴ Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names^[i] of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ¹⁵ And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. ¹⁶ The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. ¹⁷ Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. ¹⁸ The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. ¹⁹ The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, ²⁰ the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. ²¹ The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

The Glory of the New Jerusalem

²² But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. ²³ The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,^[j] for the glory^[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. ²⁴ And the nations of those who are saved^[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.^{[m] 25} Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). ²⁶ And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.^{[n] 27} But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes^[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

[Diaste]

Well, I don't see any specific order to events in Rev 20 and 21. For all we know those events all occur around the same time, not chronologically or in any other supposed order. We are simply reading what John saw and we should not suppose there is any order if none is specified.

In Rev 21 New Jerusalem is on earth already, and for 1000 years. The deceived nations surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city. What else could that be? The saints are living in tents at a campsite? And the beloved city is old brick and mortar Jerusalem? 

In Rev 20-22 the evil nations are described as living outside the city. When the 1000 years are over God sends fire to devour all those who marched against the city. After this Satan is thrown in the lake of fire and all are judged at the throne suggesting no more unrighteousness, anywhere. Meaning the city must be on earth for the 1000 years as the unrighteous are living outside the city all over the earth.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Well, I don't see any specific order to events in Rev 20 and 21. For all we know those events all occur around the same time, not chronologically or in any other supposed order. We are simply reading what John saw and we should not suppose there is any order if none is specified.

I sure hope you are not serious.  This all plays out in chronological order,  Satan is bound and chained, Jesus rules for 1000 years, Satan is loosed for a period of time, Jesus final defeat of Satan and he is cast into the Lake of Fire, Great White Throne Judgment, New Heaven and New Earth and then New Jerusalem.  How can it be any clearer???

But, lets see scripture to back up what you claim, that the New Jerusalem is on earth for 1000 years.  This should be interesting.  I am willing to guess that you are taking scripture out of context and placing them where you want to uphold your theory.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

In Rev 21 New Jerusalem is on earth already, and for 1000 years. The deceived nations surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city. What else could that be? The saints are living in tents at a campsite? And the beloved city is old brick and mortar Jerusalem?

This takes place after 1000 years.  Scripture does not say what it will be like or what building will be built during that time. Why would you suggest it is the old Jerusalem?

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

In Rev 20-22 the evil nations are described as living outside the city. When the 1000 years are over God sends fire to devour all those who marched against the city. After this Satan is thrown in the lake of fire and all are judged at the throne suggesting no more unrighteousness, anywhere. Meaning the city must be on earth for the 1000 years as the unrighteous are living outside the city all over the earth.

No, it only means that Stan was defeated by God.  The New Jerusalem did not defeat Satan as it had not been seen yet by anyone.  All that is said about those who surround the campfires of the saints that are outside the city, and the beloved city (Jerusalem as we know it) are those whom Satan deceived.  Nothing is said about unrighteousness not being inside the city gates itself.  All scripture tells us is:

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Edited May 30, 2017 by OneLight
Edited to answer you question in more debth.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, OneLight said:

I sure hope you are not serious.  This all plays out in chronological order,  Satan is bound and chained, Jesus rules for 1000 years, Satan is loosed for a period of time, Jesus final defeat of Satan and he is cast into the Lake of Fire, Great White Throne Judgment, New Heaven and New Earth and then New Jerusalem.  How can it be any clearer???

But, lets see scripture to back up what you claim, that the New Jerusalem is on earth for 1000 years.  This should be interesting.  I am willing to guess that you are taking scripture out of context and placing them where you want to uphold your theory.

This takes place after 1000 years.  Scripture does not say what it will be like or what building will be built during that time. Why would you suggest it is the old Jerusalem?

No, it only means that Stan was defeated by God.  The New Jerusalem did not defeat Satan as it had not been seen yet by anyone.  All that is said about those who surround the campfires of the saints that are outside the city, and the beloved city (Jerusalem as we know it) are those whom Satan deceived.  Nothing is said about unrighteousness not being inside the city gates itself.  All scripture tells us is:

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Ok. I'll lay out the logic more in depth when I get off work. I have long believed the bride and Christ are on earth together for 1000 years, and i have not come across scripture that refutes that idea.