1Thes.4 = Day of the Lord

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I guess you could believe that if you choose. I don't. Just remember, in the Greek, there is no timing information in these verbs. So I agree with you on "existing." Common sense tells me to believe His wrath begins at the 6th seal, and continues on through the entire 70th week and probably builds as the week progresses and few of any people repent.

If you get the picture - a scroll sealed with seals so that it cannot be unrolled and read until the seals are broken - it makes perfect sense that no trumpet can be sounded until all 7 seals are broken, making it simply impossible that the 7th trump is sounded when a seal is broken. As I see it, what we read starting in Rev. 8, after the 7th seal is broken, is what was written INSIDE the scroll.

We both know, the book was created in a certain order, by the true Author, the Holy Spirit. He just used John to write. I don't believe the Holy Spirit was trying to confuse us in the book, by purposely putting things in a wrong order. Much of the book is numbered so we would NOT try to rearrange.

We may not be so far apart.

The trouble begins when we think we should choose to believe one thing or another. While I'm convinced we should believe the Lord over all earthly things, I don't see a choice in what to believe in the written word. Either we put our beliefs aside and believe all of God's word or we risk marginalizing the word in favor of a personal view. If we believe God then we have to accept what is written in all cases, even if it assaults our limited, personal prophetic knowledge.

I agree Revelation is in order. The 7's are in order as written. Nothing specifies a demand for consecutive occurrence in relation to the 3 groups, even as the 7 events in each group are most likely consecutive. 

Again, and again, and again....im not rearranging anything. I have never said 6 comes before 2 nor have I promoted the bowls as before the seals and the trumps at the end. So please stop with this rearranging comment. I am advancing the argument that a concurrence of the groups exists.

If the wrath is existing and has arrived as the terms suggest, then the wrath must occur at the 6th seal and the 7th Trump, as written. We can, but we should not choose to ignore what is clearly written just because it flies in the face of what we want to believe. What is written should change our view. I think your argument is weak here. If the 4th seal of the scroll is broken, then all  events, no matter what they are can occur. When John saw the 7 angels with the trumps it does not mean they magically rose from the 7th seal. If the text said '....after this...' or '..only then...' or some such, then I could agree. But the text says only, "And I saw..." No specific timing. People read timing into the text because they feel it must be that way based on personal experience and a world view. 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

 

 

You were addressing finding the manuscripts and wondering if they were written correctly in what we call the bible.  I suggested you had a long road ahead of you if you were going to examine the codex manuscripts for yourself.  Then you say you will rely on the KJV and no other version.  I am confused as the KJV has the same order of events as the NKJV I use; the same placement of books ... what are you getting at here?

When the kjv was compiled the 47 scholars relied on earlier works concerning chapter and verse. They made no changes to chapter layout unless severely warranted. From my understanding they relied heavily on three upstanding historians from a century earlier, and the order in which they set down. My point was it's difficult to ascertain order in chapter and verse unless an entire writing is found intact. Not all the books in the bible were found intact in their entirety from what I read. There were a great many full copies at one time and some were lost and others only fragments remained. The exception being revelation, from what I read.

I'm good with the early codices as it's the best we have, and the kjv was born of these. I'm not disputing any particular order of any book or compliation mainly because I don't know and i just don't care, as I don't see order negating concepts. Again, the exception being revelation.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting changing the order of the 7's in revelation nor the obvious consecutive nature of the particular group, I'm saying a concurrence exists unopposed to strict and perfect order, as written.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

 

 

You were addressing finding the manuscripts and wondering if they were written correctly in what we call the bible.  I suggested you had a long road ahead of you if you were going to examine the codex manuscripts for yourself.  Then you say you will rely on the KJV and no other version.  I am confused as the KJV has the same order of events as the NKJV I use; the same placement of books ... what are you getting at here?

Missed a point. The codices accurately represent the truth and word of God. There is no dispute here.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

Look at the context.  In the 6th seal, they are running for cover, meaning present tense.  Now look at the 7th trumpet, the nations were angry.  It is spoken in the past tense.  They are two different time frames.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and lost focus on my quoted reply. 

Since both are, "...wrath is come..." or "...wrath has come..." Your position must be that wrath falls twice to reconcile the text. Once at the 6th seal, and then again, perhaps some months later, or years, and very near the end of the 70th week.

As I said before; yes, the nation's were angry, past tense. Now they are not, they are afraid. They were angry at God, and everything else, right up until the great signs of Jesus appearing. Now, at the moment of wrath, the are cowering, fearful children knowing punishment is coming. The completely harmonizes events of the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. The tenses agree; anger of the nation's is past, wrath is present.

[OneLight]

26 minutes ago, Diaste said:

When the kjv was compiled the 47 scholars relied on earlier works concerning chapter and verse. They made no changes to chapter layout unless severely warranted. From my understanding they relied heavily on three upstanding historians from a century earlier, and the order in which they set down. My point was it's difficult to ascertain order in chapter and verse unless an entire writing is found intact. Not all the books in the bible were found intact in their entirety from what I read. There were a great many full copies at one time and some were lost and others only fragments remained. The exception being revelation, from what I read.

I'm good with the early codices as it's the best we have, and the kjv was born of these. I'm not disputing any particular order of any book or compliation mainly because I don't know and i just don't care, as I don't see order negating concepts. Again, the exception being revelation.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting changing the order of the 7's in revelation nor the obvious consecutive nature of the particular group, I'm saying a concurrence exists unopposed to strict and perfect order, as written.

Yet, they are rolled out in a specific manner/timing.  The 7 Trumpets were not introduced in scripture until the 7th Seal was opened, so it is impossible for this concurrence to happen.

Revelation 8:1-2

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

[OneLight]

18 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Since both are, "...wrath is come..." or "...wrath has come..." Your position must be that wrath falls twice to reconcile the text. Once at the 6th seal, and then again, perhaps some months later, or years, and very near the end of the 70th week.

As I said before; yes, the nation's were angry, past tense. Now they are not, they are afraid. They were angry at God, and everything else, right up until the great signs of Jesus appearing. Now, at the moment of wrath, the are cowering, fearful children knowing punishment is coming. The completely harmonizes events of the 6th seal and the 7th Trump. The tenses agree; anger of the nation's is past, wrath is present.

My position is that there are three separate means by which God pours out His wrath upon the unsaved world.  The first is by the means of the Seals.  When the seals are finished, the seven Trumpets are then poured out.  When the Trumpets are finished, God pours out the Bowls.

Each are similar, but are different in measure as they get progressively worse.  I suggest instead of looking at the similarities, look at the differences and you will see they are not the same.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

The trouble begins when we think we should choose to believe one thing or another. While I'm convinced we should believe the Lord over all earthly things, I don't see a choice in what to believe in the written word. Either we put our beliefs aside and believe all of God's word or we risk marginalizing the word in favor of a personal view. If we believe God then we have to accept what is written in all cases, even if it assaults our limited, personal prophetic knowledge.

I agree Revelation is in order. The 7's are in order as written. Nothing specifies a demand for consecutive occurrence in relation to the 3 groups, even as the 7 events in each group are most likely consecutive. 

Again, and again, and again....im not rearranging anything. I have never said 6 comes before 2 nor have I promoted the bowls as before the seals and the trumps at the end. So please stop with this rearranging comment. I am advancing the argument that a concurrence of the groups exists.

If the wrath is existing and has arrived as the terms suggest, then the wrath must occur at the 6th seal and the 7th Trump, as written. We can, but we should not choose to ignore what is clearly written just because it flies in the face of what we want to believe. What is written should change our view. I think your argument is weak here. If the 4th seal of the scroll is broken, then all  events, no matter what they are can occur. When John saw the 7 angels with the trumps it does not mean they magically rose from the 7th seal. If the text said '....after this...' or '..only then...' or some such, then I could agree. But the text says only, "And I saw..." No specific timing. People read timing into the text because they feel it must be that way based on personal experience and a world view. 

"If the wrath is existing and has arrived as the terms suggest, then the wrath must occur at the 6th seal and the 7th Trump, as written. "  There is another alternative: His wrath begins at the 6th seal, time moves on through the trumpets and at the 7th trumpet His wrath is mentioned again. We could say it is "continuing on." This does not in any way have to mean that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are concurrent. My point is, they cannot possibly be concurrent. The events of the 6th seal could all be accomplished and finished in a month's time - perhaps even less. Surely 42 MONTHS go by or  3 1/2 years before the 7th trumpet is sounded.

Sorry, but it seems the NOW thing to do to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory! So many feel the need to do it. I neither think it is wise or necessary. If you are not rearranging, please accept my apologies.  However, if you think the 6th seal and 7th trumpet are concurrent, then I would have to say you mistaken, if not rearranging.

If the 4th seal of the scroll is broken, then all  events, no matter what they are can occur.  I could not disagree more! Only those events written to take place at the opening of this seal will take place. The scroll still cannot be unrolled to reveal the trumpets and what follows. The only other thing that can happen is the opening of the next seal.

When John saw the 7 angels with the trumps it does not mean they magically rose from the 7th seal.   Some people - even commentators - say that the 7th seal "contains" the 7 trumpets. I don't ever say that. I would say that the opening of the 7th seal will make possible the sounding of the trumpets.

John used similar words many times: " and I saw" or "I heard." Some times he would write "after this" or after these things." But in any case, John is making or creating a chronology from the visions.  I don't think He needs to say "then:" it is supposed since it is the next thing he mentions. If they were not consecutive, I think John would tell us.

Revelation 8:1  1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

There can be no doubt, in context, John saw the angels receive the trumpets, then saw them sound one after another. Sorry, but I cannot read this without seeing Chronology. Since I view this as the scroll being opened, although John did not specify it, I believe the trumpets are the first things written inside the scroll now that the 7 seals have been broken.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,  from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ; and there was found no place for them.

The earth and heaven had already fled away 1000 years before by the time John saw God sitting on His great white throne in Rev 20:11.

Rev. 20:7-15 is a parenthetical insert John used to carry his discussion on the destinies of Satan and the unsaved to its ultimate conclusion. Then in Rev. 21 he returned to the beginning of the Millennium to describe the New Jerusalem. The clue we get to confirm this is he opened with the same language Isaiah used to discuss Israel’s Kingdom Age on Earth (Isaiah 65:17-25).

Both John and Isaiah are both chronologically synced. 

New in quality not new in time or origin.

 

 

 

 

It would be conjecture to state that the heaven and earth is then found back into bondage as the fire only consumes satan and the wicked nations not the entire heaven or earth. We do not know why God releases satan again nor do we know the effects if any it will have on a millennial creation of earth and heaven.

 

Because by the time satan is released it is after the 1000's which by then the saints rule has already ended and the kingdom already handed over to God which is unshakable.

 

Rev. 21:22-27 also shows the Kings of the Earth bringing their splendor to the New Jerusalem, but says nothing impure can ever enter it, only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

 

Rev 21:24,26,27 is talking about nations and certain people not being allowed to enter. Again this points to a millennium setting

 

 

Rev 21:6,7 People overcoming and asking for salvation all point to flesh and blood human beings around.

 

Revelation 21:5New International Version (NIV)

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

Fits the time-frame of  Acts 3:21 “ … the times of restoration of all things …” and Rom 8:21 “because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God

You have a theory that the earth had already fled away, but not one commentator would agree with you.  Usually, if not a prophecy, when John mentions something, it is being accomplished right then.  John SAW the heaven and earth flee away and he saw it when He saw the great white throne judgment. I see NO REASON to attempt to rearrange the coming of the new earth to any other time that RIGHT THEN, when John mentioned it.

Sorry, Revelation 21 speaks to an eternity setting, NOT the millennial reign setting. You might as well just settle it in your mind: by the time John gets to chapter 21, the 1000 year Reign of Christ will have finished.

Perhaps there is a difference between restoring and creating anew.

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"If the wrath is existing and has arrived as the terms suggest, then the wrath must occur at the 6th seal and the 7th Trump, as written. "  There is another alternative: His wrath begins at the 6th seal, time moves on through the trumpets and at the 7th trumpet His wrath is mentioned again. We could say it is "continuing on." But then the chronology falls apart. This does not in any way have to mean that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet are concurrent. My point is, they cannot possibly be concurrent. It's possible. You believe it's improbable. The events of the 6th seal could all be accomplished and finished in a month's time - perhaps even less. Surely 42 MONTHS go by or  3 1/2 years before the 7th trumpet is sounded. Could be. But maybe more like 6 to 6 1/2 years. Nothing restricts the 7's to one half of the week or the other. Why is it that the seals cannot be opened all at once and the events of the seals simply occur? Why not view the unrolling of the scroll as an overview? Meaning, the seals are not broken over time and the event of the seal occurs only then, but all broken at once and then events occur in their natural course. 

Sorry, but it seems the NOW thing to do to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory! So many feel the need to do it. I neither think it is wise or necessary. If you are not rearranging, please accept my apologies.  However, if you think the 6th seal and 7th trumpet are concurrent, then I would have to say you mistaken, if not rearranging.

If the 4th seal of the scroll is broken, then all  events, no matter what they are can occur.  I could not disagree more! Only those events written to take place at the opening of this seal will take place. The scroll still cannot be unrolled to reveal the trumpets and what follows. The only other thing that can happen is the opening of the next seal. Perhaps. But as John showed all the seals were broken and the scroll fully unrolled.

When John saw the 7 angels with the trumps it does not mean they magically rose from the 7th seal.   Some people - even commentators - say that the 7th seal "contains" the 7 trumpets. I don't ever say that. I would say that the opening of the 7th seal will make possible the sounding of the trumpets. I have heard that as well. I don't pay attention to commentators.

John used similar words many times: " and I saw" or "I heard." Some times he would write "after this" or after these things." But in any case, John is making or creating a chronology from the visions.  I don't think He needs to say "then:" it is supposed since it is the next thing he mentions. If they were not consecutive, I think John would tell us. The language is precise. Since there exists the language where chronology is specified, we cannot read chronology into a place where it is not specified. It may be the events are chronological but if not stated we would need more information to prove it and not just personal belief. You are right, it is only 'supposed', not specified. God is perfect and the language is precise.

Revelation 8:1  1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

There can be no doubt, in context, John saw the angels receive the trumpets, then saw them sound one after another. Sorry, but I cannot read this without seeing Chronology. Since I view this as the scroll being opened, although John did not specify it, I believe the trumpets are the first things written inside the scroll now that the 7 seals have been broken.

All we can conclude from this is the 7 angels were given 7 trumps after John was called to heaven in Ch 4. If He said, "After this I saw..." that would be very different than, "And I saw..." Since God is precise and this vision is from God, we must rely on the exactness of the text.

 

[OneLight]

Restored Jerusalem The restored Jerusalem is the restoration during the millennium     Isaiah 54:1-15 1 “Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. 6 For the LORD has called you Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a youthful wife when you were refused," Says your God. 7 "For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you. 8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you," Says the LORD, your Redeemer.   Behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems, And lay your foundations with sapphires. 12 I will make your pinnacles of rubies, Your gates of crystal, And all your walls of precious stones. Isaiah 60 :3 The Gentiles [nations] shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising. 19 "The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you; But the LORD will be to you an everlasting light, And your God your glory. 20 Your sun shall no longer go down, Nor shall your moon withdraw itself; For the LORD will be your everlasting light, And the days of your mourning shall be ended. 21 Also your people shall all be righteous;  Isaiah 62 The Gentiles [nations] shall see your righteousness, And all kings your glory. You shall be called by a new name, Which the mouth of the LORD will name. Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.'" Isaiah 65:17-19 17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; ... 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy

New Jerusalem The New Jerusalem cones to us after the New Earth and New Heaven, not before the millennium Revelation 21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,[b] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” 9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me[f] and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”[g]10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy[h] Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. 14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names[i] of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m]25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n]27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.