Something i want to know

[FresnoJoe]

36 minutes ago, The_Patriot2017 said:

I agree belief is the core issue-without belief, there is nothing....
but the question is, if you can't follow through with the most basic of Gods commands....

which is repeated multiple times in scripture....
do you really believe....

Amen~!
Do You Really

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:39-43

Believe....

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

[The_Patriot21]

3 minutes ago, FresnoJoe said:

Amen~!
Do You Really Believe....

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:39-43

I totally believe that man is in heaven...like I said it's belief/faith that does it...I also believe had that man been able to get off the cross he would have followed through with baptism. His faith, was in the right place and that is the core issue.

[The_Patriot21]

23 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is a good question, but is used for many to judge the faith in the heart of someone, or to intimidate someone to prove their faith to others , because they do not see in their hearts, and the demand proof. 

JESUS does not need proof he can see  the faith in the heart. 

That's why Paul says; 

With the heart man believes and is justified, give it a thought. 

Jesus accepts the faith of secret Believers, and without the Baptism. 

To believe and be baptized can be seen follow in the new faith and do not go back or mix up both the old and the knew. 

Can also give notice to the followers of the old faith, do not invite me anymore in your selabrations, I belong to Christian faith now. I follow the new. 

But that can happen without the Baptism. 

You are theology incorrect here. Not in saying baptism doesn't save you, it doesn't, but the fact is there is no such thing as a "secret" believer. Jesus said to get baptized, multiple times, it is not a suggestion it's a command. And if you can't follow His commands, then where is your faith?

And while we're on the subject of Paul, when he was talking about "Secret" believers, was not giving us free reign to disobey Christ's command, in fact if you go to Romans 6 he spends nearly the entire chapter discussing the importance of baptism. Let's look at what Jesus states about "secret" believers, words of Christ in Red:

Luke 9:26

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

10 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

you are totally missing the point here--- its not to show Jesus you are saved-- t is a ministry to friends family co-workers AND enemies-- Baptism shows others Jesus is real-- its a witnessing tool

Both they are important, first for the Believer who is not baptized, and he must overcome the judgement of those who speak like the know that he does not really believe, the criticism of those who can not see in their heart, Jesus call them not blind , but one eyed, because they judge only by what they can see, but Jesus said my judgement is different, I do not need the witness of man. 

To indimidate someone into baptism with the eternal judgement of Hell, it is in my understanding a sin.

That's why when someone tells me he believes, I affirm his faith instant of doubting him, and ask him to prove his faith by some means, baptism or by something else. 

[Your closest friendnt]

18 minutes ago, The_Patriot2017 said:

You are theology incorrect here. Not in saying baptism doesn't save you, it doesn't, but the fact is there is no such thing as a "secret" believer. Jesus said to get baptized, multiple times, it is not a suggestion it's a command. And if you can't follow His commands, then where is your faith?

And while we're on the subject of Paul, when he was talking about "Secret" believers, was not giving us free reign to disobey Christ's command, in fact if you go to Romans 6 he spends nearly the entire chapter discussing the importance of baptism. Let's look at what Jesus states about "secret" believers, words of Christ in Red:

Luke 9:26

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

 

I do not doubt your good intent, but the good intent is not proof that we have judge correctly. 

The good intent of the priest crusified JESUS. 

Who have to be careful not to judge at a later time what you have approve earlier. 

First of all I am not against baptism, and baptism can save someone from a lot of earthly things, but not from Hell, because we are saved from Hell when we first believe . When first faith raised up in our heart. 

Jesus knows that moment and that's when he call us his own. 

That moment we have obey God or the Holy Spirit, who says believe in Jesus Christ. 

Not everyone Believer is a disciple, Jesus Christ did not die for the disciples only. 

You have to take the time and study all the good words Jesus has for the secret Believers, on your own. 

Nicodemus was one of them, and JESUS love him show much that he told him about things to come, as to prepared him when they happen. 

Later on , a secret Believer , maybe the same one named Nicodemus, saved the life of the disciples in Acts , when he said in the Sadhering, let God judge them, if they are in the wrong, let us not take it upon our selfs. 

The secret Believers may confess their faith among other Believers but not in the open, and for many reasons, which is not your business to judge them because you are not one of them.

Esther as a secret Believer became the Queen. 

The woman who saved the spies , by entagering her own life, and be call a traitor, and LIED to the men of the King , Rahab, she was a secret Believer. 

Jesus Christ died for all and he died for secret Believers, and not you or anyone one else can make him change his mine.

The theif on the Cross had been a secret Believer , I think so for a long time, and he statements on the Cross about Jesus is not an open and direct confession, but it was alluring that he believed something about Jesus ,and Jesus accepted it, Amen. 

Never dare a Moslem or even a Jew,  to come open with his faith in Jesus Christ when he is in danger to loose his family and his life and the rest.

As a secret Believer he can remain close to his family and help them come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ. 

And who knows if Jesus opens the way to take his family to another country, where his life is not endangered, because of his faith. And then he can only openly declare his faith, but still he can not return to his country, or be accepted by his family, he is going to loose a lot. 

Just because you are not in his place. 

[The_Patriot21]

The priests who crucified Jesus, had zero good intent. They were only concerned with themselves, and it doesn't change my point. The Bible says that we have to be baptized, not that it saves us but as a outward sign to the world that we belong to Him. It doesn't have to be a big show...but it is something I feel we have to do. Certainly some people take longer to come to this knowledge faster then others, it took my pastor many years before he was baptized, but every believer does because that is what the Bible says, and its impossible to be a believer, and not be in the word, and not want to follow it with their entire heart. 

 

Even the apostle Paul said faith without works is dead.

[Your closest friendnt]

6 hours ago, The_Patriot2017 said:

The priests who crucified Jesus, had zero good intent. They were only concerned with themselves, and it doesn't change my point. The Bible says that we have to be baptized, not that it saves us but as a outward sign to the world that we belong to Him. It doesn't have to be a big show...but it is something I feel we have to do. Certainly some people take longer to come to this knowledge faster then others, it took my pastor many years before he was baptized, but every believer does because that is what the Bible says, and its impossible to be a believer, and not be in the word, and not want to follow it with their entire heart. 

That's what Paul is saying , they baptized you and they take you in their captivity, I follow Appolos, Mark and so on, 

That's why Paul said I do not take anyone from the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Learn to give your loyalty to Jesus like I do, and those I have baptized I have them to Jesus. 

But you have your pastor and you have pledged to side with him, and at the same time you say you follow Jesus. 

But you value the word of your pastor more, or the word of Jesus more. 

Or you are a secret follower of Jesus and an open follower of your pastor, very well . 

Let JESUS judge everyone one and how he wants them. 

Non of the disciples were baptized by water , the same for Jesus, but they were baptized in the faith of Jesus by believing in him after the ressuraction, and they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. 

They only had the Baptist of Jonh, not of the Father ,the Son and the Holy Ghost, and they all became unbelievers at the time of the death of JESUS CHRIST. 

They believed some time later, and who can baptized them.

JESUS did not baptized them after the ressuraction. Food for thought. 

JESUS is calling us to the Baptist of the Holy Ghost. 

The pastor's wants the believers to be baptized with their spirit and become their loyal followers, and they sit in their judgement. 

When they baptized them they tell them , that Jesus put them overseers  over them. 

That's why Paul cation about the Baptist of water , but he promote the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which many who follow the baptism of water denied. 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Your closest friendnt
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[Wayne222]

Baptism is a commandment of christ. If we have faith that he is lord then we must be baptize.  It's part of salvation but it's the actual death of christ that brings forgiveness of sin. I think we are already forgiven when we are being baptize.  So baptism shows we are in him through his death and resurrection. It's the visible sign .It must be inportant if Christ's commands it. One can be saved without it if there is no way to be baptize. 

[The_Patriot21]

25 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

That's what Paul is saying , they baptized you and they take you in their captivity, I follow Appolos, Mark and so on, 

That's why Paul said I do not take anyone from the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Learn to give your loyalty to Jesus like I do, and those I have baptized I have them to Jesus. 

But you have your pastor and you have pledged to side with him, and at the same time you say you follow Jesus. 

But you value the word of your pastor more, or the word of Jesus more. 

Or you are a secret follower of Jesus and an open follower of your pastor, very well . 

Let JESUS judge everyone one and how he wants them. 

Non of the disciples were baptized by water , the same for Jesus, but they were baptized in the faith of Jesus by believing in him after the ressuraction, and they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. 

They only had the Baptist of Jonh, not of the Father ,the Son and the Holy Ghost, and they all became unbelievers at the time of the death of JESUS CHRIST. 

They believe some time later, and who can baptized them.

JESUS did not baptized them after the ressuraction. Food for thought. 

JESUS is calling us to the Baptist of the Holy Ghost. 

The pastor's wants the believers to be baptized with their spirit and become their loyal followers, and they sit in their judgement. 

When they baptized them they tell them a lie , that Jesus put them overseers  over them. 

That's why Paul cation about the Baptist of water , but he promote the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which many who follow the baptism of water denied. 

 

Indeed I value what scripture says more-but I also value my pastor because I know he does, I am simply pointing out that Jesus ordered the baptism of water...in scripture...words of Christ is in red. That's what I value. Even the apostle Paul believed in water baptism, read Romans 6 if you don't believe me.

In any case, you've made your case I've made mine. This discussion is now going in circles, so unless a new argument is made I see no further point, scripture can defend itself. God bless my friend.

[Your closest friendnt]

32 minutes ago, The_Patriot2017 said:

Indeed I value what scripture says more-but I also value my pastor because I know he does, I am simply pointing out that Jesus ordered the baptism of water...in scripture...words of Christ is in red. That's what I value. Even the apostle Paul believed in water baptism, read Romans 6 if you don't believe me.

In any case, you've made your case I've made mine. This discussion is now going in circles, so unless a new argument is made I see no further point, scripture can defend itself. God bless my friend.

Thank you, for your input 

and God bless.