In heaven during 1,000 year reign?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Keras said:

It is the 'rapture' believers who have a problem in proving their case from scripture. You assert that the Bible says God will take people into heaven.  Post the scripture that actually says that, or be forever branded as a false teacher. 

The Rapture is in the Bible.  So too are the Great Multitude arrayed in Heaven before the Father.

We've been through this time and time again.

Fortunately, you are not the arbitrator of truth.  Now you can call people names, but I've seen examples of your biblical exegesis; and it is sorely wanting. 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, Keras said:

Post the scripture that actually says that, or be forever branded as a false teacher. 

Two can play at this "gotcha" word-game,

Post the Scripture that actually says the earth will be burned by a coronal mass ejection or be forever branded as a false teacher.

[Keras]

5 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Post the Scripture that actually says the earth will be burned by a coronal mass ejection or be forever branded as a false teacher.

Over 70 prophesies say the Lord will burn the earth on His Day of vengeance and wrath. Examples;

Isaiah 66:15-16.....The Lord will judge with  fire, He will test all mankind and many will die.

Zephaniah 3:8 ....the whole earth will be burned by the fire of My anger.

Amos 1:1-13 & 2:1-5  All the nations in the Middle East will be devastated and virtually depopulated.

2 Peter 3:7  The heavens and the earth are now reserved for burning, on the Day of the Lord's wrath. The godless will be destroyed.

Your turn now; post the verses that say God will take His people to heaven. Just the ones that actually say that, not those your think infer it, or scriptures you assume mean it.

Remember that God does tell us what He plans for us and it will be amazing when we will fulfil our destiny, here on earth.

[Daniel 11:36]

"Fortunately, you are not the arbitrator of truth.  Now you can call people names, but I've seen examples of your biblical exegesis; and it is sorely wanting"

 

It certainly is and I would suggest that you not bother with Keras

He has fallen for Biblical nonsense and his overall exegetical composite is foolishness

.... and he is a "rapture" hater as well

These people like to eliminate Biblical truth in order to substantiate their claims .... most of his postings tell of his disdain for the Lord's removal of His own people just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world

[Marcus O'Reillius]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

Over 70 prophesies say the Lord will burn the earth on His Day of vengeance and wrath.

You failed the test.

You could not produce ONE verse which says the sun will explode and eject some of its coronal mass and so burn the earth, false teacher.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I challenge any of the people who deny Heaven, as a place yet to be known, as our final destination to show one verse which says we are transported to Jerusalem at the gathering Rapture.

Now to support the conventional belief in Heaven as our true home are these verses:

In the parable of the wheat and tares, Jesus defines the place where the wheat is taken (the Rapture) as the "barn".  This stands in complete opposition to "field" where the wheat and tares grow together.  Jesus said that "the field is the world" (Mt 13:38).  Where as where the wheat will be taken is said as: "...gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”  Since this parable concerns an explanation of the "Kingdom of Heaven" is like in simile, proper inference leads to placing that "barn" or place of safety from the field of this world which will be set on fire on the Day of the Lord - as Heaven.

In John 14, Jesus specifically says He will take us to where He is going - which is Heaven - a place, and not "outer space" as Roy would so laboriously define the word past all understanding.

My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.”  Jn 14:2-4, NIV

Where "I am" in the bold face is not sitting in a room in Jerusalem, but where He will be - which is Heaven.  Now, the funny thing is how Jesus sums up how to get to this place which does not have a physical address in the field of this world - we "know the way" - yet we don't have a roadmap.  What we have is the Gospel.  The "WAY" to Heaven is through faith in Christ Jesus.

This supports the interpretation of His "barn" as being Heaven in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13.
____________________________________________________________________________

Now, is there any direct evidence of the Church, the Elect, in Heaven?  YES.

Revelation 7:9-17.  Here a Great Multitude show up before the Father, in Heaven, coincidental with the sixth Seal with its signature sign of the sun/moon/star event which precedes the Day of the Lord!  Now keras will disallow this, but then he's very biased, and will give a false reading to further his own eschatology.

Furthermore, on the eve of the final battle of the one 'seven' in Rev 19:1 and 19:6, we "hear" the Great Multitude.  Since the same author pegs them as he first described them, we can conclude that they are present in Heaven before the end of the one 'seven'.  This aligns nicely with Pre-Wrath, Mid-Trib, and Pre-Trib.  It conflicts with Post-Trib.

Now the Apostles also support the idea of Heaven as our home:

• `…you have come to……the general assembly. The Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven…` (Heb. 12:23)
• `For our citizenship is in heaven…` (Phil. 3:20)
• `Therefore holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling…` (Heb. 3:1)
• `…the hope which is laid up for you in heaven..` (Col. 1:5)
• `…to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you…` (1 Peter 1:4)

None of these verses promise us a place in Israel during the Millenium.

In Ezekiel latter chapters, we have a very good, linear narrative of the Millennial period.  In its various chapters, land deeds are spelled out for the twelve tribes.  At no time is there a deed to the Church, or Elect for a place in Israel.

The only place we can find where the Church might be arrayed in Israel is when the final rebellion occurs after the Millennium is over and Satan is loosed.  Then all the world, under some unnamed leader comes against God's "camp" at Jerusalem.  A camp is an interesting word for a location of dwelling which is in addition to one's normal residence.  This helps to understand how we to rule on the earth, that the word for "on" can also be interpreted "over" the earth.  And as Jesus showed us in a parable pointing to Himself, a King does not have to reside where He rules.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Keras]

Sad, really, how so many have been fooled by false teachings.  Paul knew this would happen, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The whole idea of being taken to heaven is just a Satanic deception, and God has allowed it in order to test peoples faith when things do start to get tough.

Marcus says: There is no place for the Church in the holy Land.  We know the 2 tribes of Judah and Benjamin are there now. Where are the 10  other tribes, as many as the sands of the sea?  They ARE the Christian peoples, from every nation and language. 1 Peter 2:9-10 and Revelation 5:9-10 says we will reign with Him, on earth.

Isaiah 30:26a  cannot be understood any other way than the sun emitting a massive CME.  It will change the world, no doubt about it!

[Marcus O'Reillius]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Isaiah 30:26a  cannot be understood any other way than the sun emitting a massive CME.  It will change the world, no doubt about it!

LOL!

The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the LORD binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.  Isa 30:26 NIV

Y'all missed it several months back and on another board when keras re-wrote Isaiah to make it say what he wants it to say.  That's a serious error.  Of course, he also thinks "keras" means "messenger" so maybe he feels he's entitled to "properly" convey God's Word.

Anyway, that's some kind of day when God burns a third of the earth when He binds and heals!

Remember: keras says there is NO OTHER WAY to understand the sun shining brightly...  That is a reflection of self-delusion.  I'm sure it's "clear" to keras though...

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I challenge any of the people who deny Heaven, as a place yet to be known, as our final destination to show one verse which says we are transported to Jerusalem at the gathering Rapture.

Now to support the conventional belief in Heaven as our true home are these verses:

In the parable of the wheat and tares, Jesus defines the place where the wheat is taken (the Rapture) as the "barn".  This stands in complete opposition to "field" where the wheat and tares grow together.  Jesus said that "the field is the world" (Mt 13:38).  Where as where the wheat will be taken is said as: "...gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”  Since this parable concerns an explanation of the "Kingdom of Heaven" is like in simile, proper inference leads to placing that "barn" or place of safety from the field of this world which will be set on fire on the Day of the Lord - as Heaven.

In John 14, Jesus specifically says He will take us to where He is going - which is Heaven - a place, and not "outer space" as Roy would so laboriously define the word past all understanding.

My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.”  Jn 14:2-4, NIV

Where "I am" in the bold face is not sitting in a room in Jerusalem, but where He will be - which is Heaven.  Now, the funny thing is how Jesus sums up how to get to this place which does not have a physical address in the field of this world - we "know the way" - yet we don't have a roadmap.  What we have is the Gospel.  The "WAY" to Heaven is through faith in Christ Jesus.

This supports the interpretation of His "barn" as being Heaven in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13.
____________________________________________________________________________

Now, is there any direct evidence of the Church, the Elect, in Heaven?  YES.

Revelation 7:9-17.  Here a Great Multitude show up before the Father, in Heaven, coincidental with the sixth Seal with its signature sign of the sun/moon/star event which precedes the Day of the Lord!  Now keras will disallow this, but then he's very biased, and will give a false reading to further his own eschatology.

Furthermore, on the eve of the final battle of the one 'seven' in Rev 19:1 and 19:6, we "hear" the Great Multitude.  Since the same author pegs them as he first described them, we can conclude that they are present in Heaven before the end of the one 'seven'.  This aligns nicely with Pre-Wrath, Mid-Trib, and Pre-Trib.  It conflicts with Post-Trib.

Now the Apostles also support the idea of Heaven as our home:

• `…you have come to……the general assembly. The Church of the first-born who are registered in heaven…` (Heb. 12:23)
• `For our citizenship is in heaven…` (Phil. 3:20)
• `Therefore holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling…` (Heb. 3:1)
• `…the hope which is laid up for you in heaven..` (Col. 1:5)
• `…to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you…` (1 Peter 1:4)

None of these verses promise us a place in Israel during the Millenium.

In Ezekiel latter chapters, we have a very good, linear narrative of the Millennial period.  In its various chapters, land deeds are spelled out for the twelve tribes.  At no time is there a deed to the Church, or Elect for a place in Israel.

The only place we can find where the Church might be arrayed in Israel is when the final rebellion occurs after the Millennium is over and Satan is loosed.  Then all the world, under some unnamed leader comes against God's "camp" at Jerusalem.  A camp is an interesting word for a location of dwelling which is in addition to one's normal residence.  This helps to understand how we to rule on the earth, that the word for "on" can also be interpreted "over" the earth.  And as Jesus showed us in a parable pointing to Himself, a King does not have to reside where He rules.

Shalom, Marcus.

Okay, I'll accept the challenge as a person who "denies Heaven, as a place yet to be known, as our final destination" and believes that we shall be gathered to Yerushalayim:

Zephaniah 3:8-20
8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.
KJV

Zechariah 1:12-17
12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words.
14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.
15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.
16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
KJV

Zechariah 2:1-12
1 I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand.
2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.
3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him,
4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple (pupil) of his eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
KJV

Read from Isaiah 40 and onward to chapter 66! You will find it! Several times it talks about gathering the nations to Himself and He shall reign from Jerusalem!

The parables of Matthew 13 (except for the first one) are about the KINGDOM! They are about the 1000 years, the "Millennium!" They are NOT about this current time at all! The "gathering into His barn" is talking about at the END of the Millennium giving His Kingdom to His Father!

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 

27 "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' 

28 "'An enemy did this,' he replied.

"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 

29 "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'" 
...

36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field." 

37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 

40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." 
NIV

Compare this to 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

[Keras]

4 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Remember: keras says there is NO OTHER WAY to understand the sun shining brightly

Where, then is your explanation of what causes the sun to shine with seven times it's normal brightness, as seven days in one. ?  And while you are at it, also explain what would make the moon shine as bright as the sun.  Brightly red as Joel 2:31 and Rev 6:12, as the sun is darkened by the approaching CME cloud. Zephaniah 1:14-18

What we are told by Isaiah 30:25-30, is what the Lord will use on His terrible Day of wrath and the worldwide effects of it. But in verses 26b and 29, there is the great promises of God to His righteous people, of His protection; we are told to call upon His Name - Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, and how He will gather His people into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26 +

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Okay, I'll accept the challenge as a person who "denies Heaven, as a place yet to be known, as our final destination" and believes that we shall be gathered to Yerushalayim:

Good post, Retro.

Your pointing out 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, is very appropriate.  There is no hint in that concise précis of what will happen, of any living group going to heaven. Other than the special case of Enoch, such a idea never was and is not now a part of God's Plan.

Those who have been sucked in by the rapture false teaching, are forced to add to the lies and make plain prophesies fit their beliefs by inference and supposition. They also become quite nasty and unchristian toward anyone who challenges their belief.