Is Maryology Idolatry?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

13 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

Cant do it can you----

You're the first person to admit that. Wow!

no I can't prove sola scriptura. It's not scriptural. 

[woundeddog]

RCC churches Mantra " Hail Mary , full of grace, the Lord is with you"--- propaganda says " no one has ever been greeted by an angel saying Hail, so she must be special-- and If she is full of grace-- that must mean she has no sin- which must mean she was sinless form conception--   Okay- GRACE does not mean some state of holiness like the RCC always implies ~~~~ Strongs Concordance

KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x The KJV translates Strong's G5487 in the following manner: be highly favoured (1x), make accepted (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?] to make graceful charming, lovely, agreeable to persue with grace, compass with favour to honour with blessings

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend) χαριτόω charitóō, khar-ee-to'-o; from G5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:—make accepted, be highly favoured.   No reliable translation uses the word "Grace"- "Highly favored or favored is the general translation"

 

Verse (Click for Chapter)

New International Version
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

New Living Translation
Gabriel appeared to her and said, "Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!"

English Standard Version
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

Berean Study Bible
The angel appeared to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

Berean Literal Bible
And having come to her, he said, "Greetings, you favored with grace! The Lord is with you."

New American Standard Bible
And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

King James Bible
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And the angel came to her and said, "Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."

International Standard Version
The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

NET Bible
The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!"

New Heart English Bible
Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one. The Lord is with you."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Angel entered her presence, and he said to her, “Peace to you, full of grace, our Lord is with you; you are blessed among women.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, "You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you."

New American Standard 1977
And coming in, he said to her, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And the angel came in unto her and said, Hail, thou that art much graced, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.

King James 2000 Bible
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

American King James Version
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, you that are highly favored, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.

American Standard Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Darby Bible Translation
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, [thou] favoured one! the Lord [is] with thee: [blessed art thou amongst women].

English Revised Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the angel came to her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Weymouth New Testament
So Gabriel went into the house and said to her, "Joy be to you, favoured one! the Lord is with you."

World English Bible
Having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"

Young's Literal Translation
And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;'

 

Mary's semi-diety status and veneration is only based on "Sacred Tradition", not biblical authority,

and that authority is falsely seized when in Thessalonians Paul admonishes to pay attention to SCRIPTURE ( written word of God pre -compliation New Testemant) and tradition. Everything taught before this statement is tradition---- Thess. was written around 55 AD-- everything after 55 AD was not included in tradition, it was addition, and not God inspired.

 

So The answer to the question  to a serious seeker of is Maryo;ogy Idolatry-- would have to be Yes-- she as portrayed by the Roman Church, the "Queen of heaven" is just the re-cycled pagan goddess  Simmeranous, or Isis--

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

4 hours ago, Spock said:

THE HOLY BIBLE!!!!!!!  YIKES!!!!!!!! (And not some Pope's dictum. )

Smh. I've asked this repeated. Prove using scripture:

1. Sola fide

2. Sola scriptura

you can't so YIKES!!!!!!!! All you want. The Holy Bible doesn't support your theology. 

 

[woundeddog]

5 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

You're the first person to admit that. Wow!

I was asking you to show proof outside of tradition- not your question about biblical reference I webnt first-- you dodged the response

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

9 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

I was asking you to show proof outside of tradition- not your question about biblical reference I webnt first-- you dodged the response

I didn't dodge anything. You on the other hand ignored my question and answered your own. I said I would answer you using scripture. But only after you answered me first. You see my question has been dodged every time I've asked it. Yet I answer questions I've been asked. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Judas Machabeus

[Reinitin]

5 hours ago, Spock said:

I enjoyed reading these words.

Yes, the RCC did not begin until after the Constantine's Council of Nicaea met in 323 AD, so clearly they were not the first church. We had 300 years before them of church.  So no one can argue that they were the first church, therefore the one God is protecting, because they weren't. 

They did exsist before Constantine not saying they are the first church. They were not built on peter the apostal of the Lord Jesus Christ but they had already deeply woven pagan idolatry and christianity and were established when Constantine converted. 

Some historical documents you might enjoy. 

REFERENCES

[1] Cumont, The Oriental Religions, intro, p. xi

 

[2] Constantine’s Edict Against The Heretics, in Eusebius, Life of Constantine, 3.53, Christian Roman Empire, vol. 8

 

[3] St. Ambrose, Of the Christian Faith, 2.5

 

[4] St. Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, 1.1-2

 

[5] St. Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, 1.2

 

[6] St. Irenaeus in Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 4.14

 

[7] Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 4.11

 

[8] Tertullian, Against Marcion, 1.2

 

[9] St. Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, 1.27

 

[10] Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 4.14

 

[11] Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 6.43

 

[12] St. Cyprian, epistle 48, trans. Robert Ernest Wallis.

 

[13] Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 6.43

 

[14] Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 6.43, trans. C.F. Cruse, brackets mine

 

[15] St. Ambrose, Of the Christian Faith, 5.8.104

 

[16] Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 2.27

 

[17] Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 5.16*

 

[18] Euseb. Eccles. Hist. 5.18

 

[19] Firmicus, The Error of the Pagan Religions, 5.2, trans. Clarence A. Forbes, ellipses mine

 

[20] Leslie William Barnard, intro to Justin Martyr’s Apologies, Ancient Christian Writers

 

[21] St. Justin Martyr, I Apology, 66, trans. Leslie William Barnard

 

[22] Eusebius, Life of Constantine, 4.21, brackets mine

 

[23] Eusebius, Life of Constantine, 1.32

 

[23A] City of God, 5.25, trans. Marcus Dods

 

[24) Eusebius, Life of Constantine, 4.32

 

[25) Peter J. Leihart, Defending Constantine, ch. 4, p. 75, 2010

 

[26) Peter J. Leihart, Defending Constantine, ch. 4, p. 77, 2010

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

6 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Mary is called the MOTHER of James, Joses, etc etc

There is more than one Mary mentioned in the bible. There's Mary the wife to Clopus (forgive the spelling). There is a list of the brothers of Christ and you can use the Gospels and map out they are the sons of clopus who is married to a Mary. 

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

6 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

They did exsist before Constantine not saying they are the first church.

This I can respect. I don't agree with the second have of the sentence but I can respect the whole sentence. 

Actually the whole post for that matter. 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

7 minutes ago, Davida said:

Yes you have dodged almost every question given to you in this thread. You've been asked to provide scripture and you have not, and every time you've been asked a question you answer with a question rather then answering the questions and providing scripture.

I am conversing with 3 people in this one thread so I can not give you 100% of my attention. When a post has multiple points being made I pick one to address and move to the next person. 

Yet I have asked one question over and over again. 

Which you still have not answered either. So I find it odd that you have accused me of dodging you twice yet you are doing the same. And round and round we go. 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

6 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

I would also like to point out that God has done all He can to prevent people from giving Mary undue reverence either directly....

Luke 11:27-8

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Or indirectly, as in the fact that Mary is not mentioned after Acts.

Okay, so scripture can not contradict scripture. 

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you point so please correct me and clarify if I have it wrong. 

Because a woman that says blessed is thy womb and is rebuked by Jesus and he replies saying blessed are they that hear the word of God. This shows that Mary was not to be given undue reverence. 

I disagree with your analysis of the verses you quoted.... I know shocker right. But let me explain what I think is going on here. 

You have to back up 3 verses. Jesus is teaching (verse 24-26) and than he is interrupted (verse 27). Jesus is not rebuking the content of what she said, he's scolding her for interrupting (verse 28).

Luke 11:24-26

24 "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' 
25 And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order.
26 Then he goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

 

Luke 11:27-28

27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!" 
28 But he said, " Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" 

Here's the challenge I see with your interpretation vs mine. Mine doesn't contradict scripture. If Jesus was rebuking the content of what the woman said than it contradicts scripture.

Luke 1:42

42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, " Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 

Luke 1:48

48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

Blessed is Mary among woman and all generations will call her blessed. So why would Luke write these things if in 10 chapters Jesus is going to rebuke someone for doing this.

i would also argue that Mary is given reverence above all other humans. What other human (excluding Jesus he was both human and divine) does scripture say will be called blessed by ALL generations. 

As always a pleasure. 

Cheers and God Bless