Is Maryology Idolatry?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

Do they not pray to Mary?  Who prays to dead people? Only God can answer prayer. Mary has no influence on any of your prayers. She has no idea about any of that stuff. 

In the book of Revelation we see where an angel is offering incense at the alter and it says that it's the prayers of the saints. 

Revelation 8:3-4

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 
4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

http://biblehub.com/kjv/revelation/8-4

the question is often asked "How can Mary hear everyone's prayers....." we don't know how God does it, just that he does.

its also useful to know that the word pray simply means "to ask". So when someone prays to Mary or any of the Saints, they are simply asking for them to pray for them.  James tells us that the prayers of a righteous man is powerful and effective. There is no one more righteous than someone in heaven.

NIV

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

http://biblehub.com/james/5-16.htm

as Christians we pray for each other all the time. So if it's okay to ask your fellow Christian to pray for you than why not those in heaven. Some will say because they are dead they can not hear us. Again that's not true either. Paul talks about the body of Christ and how we are all apart of it and how no one part can not disregard another. 

 RSV

1 Corinthians 12:12-27

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-Jews or Greeks, slaves or free-and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
18 18But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
19 19If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 

(No link I got this from my phone app)

So I would ask. If that is true that those in heaven are separated from us on earth then how can we say they are part of the body of Christ when Paul says no one part can say they are not part of the body. Paul is clear we are all part of one body and that is the body of Christ. Now the immediate context is regarding the heiarchy of the church and that everyone has their own job and everyone is equally important. But the question remains, Paul goes to great length to emphasize we are one body, the body of Christ. So if we are all part of one body does that include those in heaven? Are they also members of the body of Christ? If so than they are just as aware of us on earth as they are of those in heaven. 

 

So to summarize: 

The prayers of the  righteous are most powerful (Jam 5:16) and there is no one more righteous than those in heaven. We know our prayers are collect and offered to God (Rev 8:3-4)  and we know that those in heaven are not cut off or separated from us on earth (1 Cor 12:12-27). 

Cheers and God Bless

 

[Spock]

Judas and Fidelbus,

you can pray to Mary all you want and ask her for whatever you want, but please be honest with yourself and call a spade a spade....YOU WORSHIP HER.  You may not think this is idol worship, but yours or my opinion means little. What is Gods opinion on this matter?  According to the Bible as many of us see it, God says you are an idolater, and out of love and concern for you, we hope you can be convicted and repent of this gross sin so that it will be well with your soul.  

Honestly, I don't know you, and I won't lose any sleep if you hang on to your version of Mary as you have, but out of love for God, he commands me to speak the word, reprove the wayward, and spread the good news.  Spreading Mary is not the good news and is wrong.  You should be talking, praying, and exalting ONLY GOD, not Mary. 

Again I say to you, praying to Mary has nothing to do with the saints in Revelation praying. I guarantee you, they are not praying to Mary. Saying that Hail Mary is blasphemy. 

The following are my suggestions if you are interested:

Do yourself a favor and throw away every Catholic book you have, especially that Catechism, forget every word spoken of by any Pope, get rid of that rosary bead for sure, throw away all your Mary icons in the trash, and get out the Holy Bible and read only that for this year. Oh, you may want to consider not going to mass for a while.  You may want to keep your mind free from that influence so that it does not compete with Gods word. 

Spock

ps being Italian, I was raised Catholic. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spock

[simplejeff]

6 minutes ago, Spock said:

Spock

ps being Italian, I was raised Catholic. 

< SMILE > HALLELUYAH !  Nationality,  and family,  all pressuring you all your life  --- remember how hard it was to be set free ?!

Someone prayed ,  a real believer prayed, for you,  in union with JESUS,  so the FATHER in heaven drew you so you would seek HIM,   and when the time was perfect, the FATHER removed the veil (as HE had to for the Apostles and disciples of JESUS).

The point - the power and purpose and effectiveness of prayer -  AND the complete and utter governmental, religious, and familial and social "support" system (i.e. the world)  ALL opposed to GOD, that must be overcome in order for anyone on earth to come to CHRIST JESUS.    

i.e. mariology is one point of hundreds perhaps,  that must be renounced,  exposed,  for someone to be set free....

[warrior12]

1 hour ago, Fidelibus said:

Hi warrior12, like you, and before my converting to the Catholic Church, I too used this passage to prove Mary sinned. However, after futher study I came to see that Rom.3:23 does not say that Mary ever sinned. 

 

In closing warrior12, I'd like to ask you or any other non-Catholic that uses this passage to prove Mary sinned......... Do you seek God?

  All men born after Adam inherited Adam sin nature by default.  If you point to Jesus, the Bible clearly states his sinless nature as man and of God.  Mary was not divine and no where in scripture we are told to pay reverence to her.   Jesus even called her woman. 

What was  your turning point in converting AND  what was your belief or religious affiliations before, if i may ask.  Thanks.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Can you show me where the bible says everything has to be in the bible?

 

The Bible, is God's self disclosure.   It's how He has revealed himself and his truth to mankind.   If someone says something about God, and it is not found in Scripture, how do you know it is true?

It stands to reason that if you're going to say something about God, or doctrine that you should be able to find it in Scripture.   Otherwise, there is no way to know if it is true.  So if there is no way to prove from Scripture that Mary was assumed into heaven, no way to prove she never had sex, no way to prove that she was born sinless, then how do you know those things are true?

[Fidelibus]

34 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

  What was  your turning point in converting AND  what was your belief or religious affiliations before, if i may ask.  Thanks.

Hello warrior12. I would say my turning point was when I started digging deep into the history of Christianity. Converting to the Catholic faith was not my intentions when I started looking into the history of Christianity, in fact it was the furthest thing in my mind! However, being a history buff, I thought to myself........'surley Christianity didn't start with the Reformation'!  So, I looked into pre-Reformation history, and that took me back over fifteen hundred years before the Reformation. To my surprise, the Church teachings in those fifteen hundred years were Catholic! In short, that was the turning point for me. 

To quote  Cardinal John Henry Newman: " To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant" Keep in mind warrior12, Newmans maxim is not intended to be a "rule" that Protestants learned in church history must enter the Catholic Church. It is a general observation that Church history argues against Protestantism and that those Protestants like myself (I was in a number of different Protestant denominations, ending in a non-Denominational before my conversion) who deeply studied history realize that  the Catholic Church is the true visible Church, which came to be the case with me. Hope that helps. So warrior12, as I asked before in my last post to you, I asked, "Do you seek God?"  but you didn't respond, could you?

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

40 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It stands to reason that if you're going to say something about God, or doctrine that you should be able to find it in Scripture

I'll use your words to respond

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yeah, so since it seems reasonable, we'll just make something up and declare it doctrine???  

Paul talks about holding to the traditions he passed on, written and ORAL. Sorry, but bible alone is a man made tradition and is not supported by scripture. 

-----------------

1 hour ago, Spock said:

YOU WORSHIP HER

I'll beg your parden, I do not worship Mary. The only person that is worshipped is God. 

[Fidelibus]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Judas and Fidelbus,

you can pray to Mary all you want and ask her for whatever you want, but please be honest with yourself and call a spade a spade....YOU WORSHIP HER.  You may not think this is idol worship, but yours or my opinion means little. What is Gods opinion on this matter?  According to the Bible as many of us see it, God says you are an idolater, and out of love and concern for you, we hope you can be convicted and repent of this gross sin so that it will be well with your soul.  

With all due respect Spock, by who's or what authority can you make these accusations?
 

Again I say to you, praying to Mary has nothing to do with the saints in Revelation praying. I guarantee you, they are not praying to Mary. Saying that Hail Mary is blasphemy.

Could I ask you someting Spock?  Are you infallible in your interpretation of this passage in question?  If yes, could you please elaborate? If not, would you agree that you could be misunderstanding and misinterpreting this passage or all passages of the Bible, since you rely on your own private interpretations for doctrinal beliefs? 

The following are my suggestions if you are interested:

Not really, I heard them all from my former Protestant friends and family when I told them of my conversion. The sad thing is, many (not all) of these so-called friends have since shunned me. Very hurtful, and not very Christian I might add.

ps being Italian, I was raised Catholic.

Pretty sure not all Italians are Catholic

 

p.s. Do you seek God?

[Spock]

 

Right out of the Catholic Catechism.  Please pay special attention to the underlined portion (mine). 

Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."⁵⁰² "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."⁵⁰³

^{SPOCK:  Mary is the Mother of the Church!  Really!  Since when?}   

I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";⁵⁰⁴ it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

spock: What did Mary have to do with anything regarding the work of  salvation? Wasn't it all Jesus? 

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."⁵⁰⁵

^{Spock:  Mary's only begotten son!  I thought it was the Father's only begotten son!} 

965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."⁵⁰⁶ In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."⁵⁰⁷

. . . also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."⁵⁰⁸ The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

Spock: who made her Queen of Heaven?  

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.⁵⁰⁹

 

^{Spock:  where in the Bible does it say she kept her virginity?  Matthew 13:55 says Jesus had four brothers and sisters.}

. . . she is our Mother in the order of grace

967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)⁵¹⁰ of the Church.

spock: I thought Christ is the preeminent member of the Church. 

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."⁵¹¹

^{Spock: How has Mary cooperated in Jesus' work of redemption?  Again, why is Mary getting equal billing with Jesus?}

 

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."⁵¹²

 

^{Spock:  so, she continues to SAVE lost souls and is Mediatrix.  Yet the Bible says there is only one Mediator, the Lord Jesus.} 

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."⁵¹³ "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."⁵¹⁴

* II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

spock: Devotion!  Does man receive devotion? Or God?  

Definition of devotion from Webster: 

Full Definition

• 1 a  : religious fervor : piety 
  b  : an act of prayer or private worship — usually used in plural 
  c  : a religious exercise or practice other than the regularcorporate worship of a congregation

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."⁵¹⁵ The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."⁵¹⁶ The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.⁵¹⁷

 

^{Spock: Mary is not the mother of God, but rather is the mother of Jesus, in his humanity. Why are there Feasts to Mary? Why do people pray to Mary, a dead person?  How come no one is praying to Peter or Paul or Matthew or John?}

III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH

972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"⁵¹⁸ the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

 

Spock:   Since when did Mary become my mother? The church's mother? 

In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.⁵¹⁹

 

Spock: I thought Jesus is the image and the beginning of the church!  Where does it say in the Bible that Mary is the Queen of Heaven shining forth on Earth?  

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spock

[Spock]

23 minutes ago, Fidelibus said:

With all due respect Spock, by who's or what authority can you make these accusations?
 

 

Could I ask you someting Spock?  Are you infallible in your interpretation of this passage in question?  If yes, could you please elaborate? If not, would you agree that you could be misunderstanding and misinterpreting this passage or all passages of the Bible, since you rely on your own private interpretations for doctrinal beliefs? 

 

 

Not really, I heard them all from my former Protestant friends and family when I told them of my conversion. The sad thing is, many (not all) of these so-called friends have since shunned me. Very hurtful, and not very Christian I might add.

 

 

Pretty sure not all Italians are Catholic

 

p.s. Do you seek God?

By Gods authority: He appointed me to be his Ambassador of Reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:20 He commands me to speak truth, share the gospel to the lost, and help the wayward see the error of their ways.  

I am not infallible (only the Pope is, right? /sarcasm off. Me slapping myself for that) but I can guarantee you I am right when I say the Bible does not promote, advocate, or encourage prayer to anyone but God. 

If some Protestants shunned you, there is scripture to support that. See 1 Corinthians 5:9-12. There paul tells believers to not associate with a so-called brother if he is sexually immoral, greedy, AN IDOLATER, a drunkard...... With such a man, don't even eat with." 

If you hold Mary up as high as your Catholic Catechism holds her up, you are an idolater according to scripture. Just being honest Fidel. You don't need a brother to flatter you anyhow. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spock