What Constitutes Apotasy (Falling Away)

[MorningGlory]

17 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

The church is not mentioned in Revelation 18!

Indeed it isn't.  Y'all are too complicated for me; I am going to have to go over everything in this thread very carefully because I'm having trouble understanding it all.  

[Willa]

We have apostate churches that have abandoned the Bible, God's word.  

We have believers who have abandoned their faith due to trials.  Or those who those who don't have roots in God's word. There are those who neglect their faith and allow it to be choked out instead of turning to God and trusting him to take care of the cares of this world.  Some become angry at God due to grief.  Hopefully they repent.  Thankfully God continues to pursue us.  But many harden their hearts and resist His grace.

Heb 2:1  Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.  Heb 2:2  For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, Heb 2:3  how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, Heb 2:4  God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Neglecting and drifting away are the most insidious forms of backsliding.  We are most vulnerable when not involved in a church, as many on this forum confess.  Some of us are unable to attend regularly.  

But God is faithful to keep His own, who hear His voice and follow Him.  These stay connected to the Vine and bear fruit.  These are fully surrendered to their Good Shepherd.  Some pastors consider themselves to be sheep dogs. lol     They minister to  and counsel those that are prone to wander and find themselves in trouble.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, MorningGlory said:

Indeed it isn't.  Y'all are too complicated for me; I am going to have to go over everything in this thread very carefully because I'm having trouble understanding it all.  

sorry I'm not buying that perspective  

[Guest shiloh357]

On 4/30/2017 at 5:17 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

To me it is obvious one can fall away, otherwise why would Jesus keep telling us endure to end, and Paul keep saying fight the good fight of faith? The reason to endure if you can fall away (I am not saying its easy, but I believe Scripture substantiates such a case for it).
 

Jesus was talking about enduring to the end of the Tribulation.   He was not saying that our salvation is based on us enduring to the end of our lives to keep ourselves saved.   We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.   It doesn't depend on us or our effort at any point.

On 4/30/2017 at 1:48 AM, Fidei Defensor said:

So is the terrible apostasy of Hebrews 6, putting Jesus up to public shame, a like opposite event to when someone is baptized in water in front of church? What if qualifier? And why then did the Apostle Peter get forgiven for denying Jesus publicly (John 18:15-27, and John 20:15-19).

Please, to anyone reading this, don't freak out. Its just a question.

 

If you go back up to Heb. 5:11, that is where the context starts and the issue Hebrews 6  is not about apostasy.   The word apostasy doesn't appear in the Greek.  The context and the complaint by the writer of Hebrews is not that they are falling into apostasy, but that they are spiritually lazy and immature.

The word for "falling away"  in Greek is παραπεσοντας (parapesontas, from parapiptos)  and it refers to falling aside.  It is the picture of a runner who is out of condition and is too weak to to run the entire course and has to fall to the side and walk to the finish line.

So it isn't talking about falling away from the Lord. 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Are you sure Shiloh? I'm not a Greek expert but here is a brief def. from BDAG...

5620  παραπίπτω
• παραπίπτω 2 aor. παρέπεσον, 1 pl. παρεπέσαμεν (B-D-F §81, 3; s. Mlt-H. 208f); pf. 2 sg. παραπέπτωκας Ezk 22:4 (trag., Hdt. et al.; pap, LXX; TestSol 10:8 P; Jos., Ant. 19, 285. In the pap mostly = become lost) lit. ‘fall beside’, then ‘go astray, miss’ (Polyb. 3, 54, 5 τῆς ὁδοῦ; fig. 12, 12, 2 τῆς ἀληθείας; 8, 11, 8 τοῦ καθήκοντος); abs. (X., Hell. 1, 6, 4; Polyb. 18, 36, 6=make a mistake) and in the sense to fail to follow through on a commitment, fall away, commit apostasy (Wsd 6:9; 12:2; Ezk 22:4) Hb 6:6 (s. KBornhäuser, Empfänger u. Verf. des Hb ’32). Also w. acc. of inner content (cognate; B-D-F §154; Rob. 477f) ὅσα παρεπέσαμεν whatever sins we have committed 1 Cl 51:1.—M-M. TW.

parapíptō; fut. parapesoúmai, 2d aor. parépeson, from pará (G3844), to the side of or from, implying error, and píptō (G4098), to fall. To fall aside or away, err, stray, lapse. Used only in Heb_6:6, denoting a falling away, an abandonment. Some have suggested that this word and its noun paráptōma ([G3900], a lapse, error, wrongdoing) indicate errors of weakness, faults or accidents and do not represent deliberate, blameworthy or willful sin, contending that this would be expressed by parabaínō (G3845), to willfully transgress. However, the usus loquendi of the words (verb and noun) yield no such meaning but in every case signify deliberate acts of sin. See Sept.: Eze_18:24; Eze_20:27. ~ From the Greek Word Study  Dictionary, Spiros Zodihates, AMG Publishers.

If we take it to mean apostasy, then anyone who falls away cannot be re-saved, they are permanently lost, and no hope of coming back to Christ, which would make man's sin more powerful than the atoning work of Christ.

And the context also supports my claim, as there is nothing in the context that is talking about apostasy.  The complaint is not that they are living in sin, but that they are not advancing and maturing in their walk with God.   To stick apostasy in there doesn't make sense in light of the overall context and line of thought expressed by the writer of Hebrews.

It's hard when it is one of those words that is used only one time and we don't have multiple uses to compare.  

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Yowm said:

I've pretty much viewed the passage as a warning about reverting back to Judaism under the then current persecution and pressure thus the author's theme of 'Better'.

But if you follow the context from up in Heb. 5: 11 on down to 6:6, there are no warnings about returning to Judaism.   The warnings about returning to Judaism is what is found in Hebrews 10.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Yowm said:

Well, I don't want to belabor the point, but he seems to build his case from Heb 1 showing all the 'better's' and then gives warning not to fall back into that system which was temporary. Probably has little to do with 6.6.

Yes, he does, but his argument culminates in chapter 10, about shrinking back. 

[Fidei Defensor]

3 hours ago, eileenhat said:

Re; The falling away, ie. grand deception

This is regarding the grand deception time period (where we are now).

That it is far worse to know the Lord, in your heart, then turn from him (toward satan and his 'mark') in God's eyes than to have never known him prior.

For their judgement is severe.  There are actually two periods of judgement, one before Jesus's 1,000 year rule and one post. (example: the second judgement for all those living and dead is, Rev. 20:12, but there is one prior for those with the mark of the beast on their foreheads/right hands).

The first judgement is noted in Rev. 20: 4 as not befalling his saints or ones that did not take the mark;

"King James Bible
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The mark is categorized here as:

"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." KJV Rev. 13:17

The 'mark' seems destined for 'the falling away' ones.  I tend to see this category differently than others.  to me it refers to God's children who turn from him here in the USA (ie. spiritual Israel) versus the entire world populations who have always been pagan and never once turned from their pro satan support.  Just stating what I've learned from God myself.  That there are two groups of humans on earth, each with a different role (ie. soul complex)....a controversial topic (but it explains....everything, but is considered 'not correct speech' now.). 

What befalls those that take the mark?

Plagues etc. (ie. judgement) per Rev. 15:8, 16:1.

 

Very interesting, I like how you tied it into the Grand Deception that is coming, "This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. ¹² Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-11). While Paul's words here seems specifically for unbelievers, I am not so certain, Jesus says in Matthew 24:24, "If at all possible the Elect be deceived." Now some think, this means "Its not possible, if possible being, like as if, not going to happen," but I think it could fall into category of "It is possible, but highly unlikely or if possible in sense of it is possible. The Falling Away from Faith is laid out in many of verses I've already shared, and while we shouldn't live in terror of falling away, we should be vigilant, "This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith." (Revelation 14:12).