Ecumenism: "Why Can't We Be Friends?"

[David1701]

3 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Do you think Christian Unity is possible? Particularly among the churches that share common core beliefs? 

I think of this mantra, “In Essentials Unity, in Non-Essentials liberty, in All Things Charity.” (Rupertus Meldenius). The problem is many churches in the Ecumenical movements can't get the Essentials down, they water down Christology, and other major doctrines to let Unitarians and other cults that are not Orthodox Christianity (Biblical Christianity) join.  If you can’t get the Essentials right, the rest won’t work. 

One of the problems with ecumenism, is that it is generally discussions between denominations (not counting the ones in which false religions are invited).  Denominations have their own statements of faith, to which members must usually adhere.  This means that the result of ecumenical discussions will usually be a joint statement that is so vague that everyone can agree with it - and all such agreement is meaningless, because the statement can mean all things to all denominations.

Real ecumenism must start with agreement that what the Bible says is true (interpretations would be discussed later).  This includes the fact that denominations are unbiblical ... oops!  All such inter-denominational discussions are, therefore, doomed before they start.

True unity is not based on agreement between denominations, but on fellowship with the Father and Son, by the Holy Spirit.  It is unity in the truth; and the fact is that all born again Christians ARE united in spirit.  It is also true that there will be disagreements, to some extent, until the Lord returns.

[Fidei Defensor]

6 minutes ago, David1701 said:

One of the problems with ecumenism, is that it is generally discussions between denominations (not counting the ones in which false religions are invited).  Denominations have their own statements of faith, to which members must usually adhere.  This means that the result of ecumenical discussions will usually be a joint statement that is so vague that everyone can agree with it - and all such agreement is meaningless, because the statement can mean all things to all denominations.

Real ecumenism must start with agreement that what the Bible says is true (interpretations would be discussed later).  This includes the fact that denominations are unbiblical ... oops!  All such inter-denominational discussions are, therefore, doomed before they start.

True unity is not based on agreement between denominations, but on fellowship with the Father and Son, by the Holy Spirit.  It is unity in the truth; and the fact is that all born again Christians ARE united in spirit.  It is also true that there will be disagreements, to some extent, until the Lord returns.

I agree that real ecumenism must begin with agreeing  what The Holy Bible says is true. This alone would make liberal theologians depart, which is important because they will undermine the Bible. 

Do you think ecumenists can unite over The Apostle’s Creed or Nicene Creed as they once did? Instead of a broad and vague statement? 

I like your statement that true unity  is based on “fellowship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” It reminds me of this song: 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d9zoq3k-3K0

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[David1701]

15 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I agree that real ecumenism must begin with agreeing  what The Holy Bible says is true. This alone would make liberal theologians depart, which is important because they will undermine the Bible. 

Do you think ecumenists can unite over The Apostle’s Creed or Nicene Creed as they once did? Instead of a broad and vague statement? 

I like your statement that true unity  is based on “fellowship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” It reminds me of this song: 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d9zoq3k-3K0

 

Genuine Christians should certainly agree on the essentials (the Trinity; deity of Christ, virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, shed blood and death on the cross, bodily resurrection, bodily ascension into heaven; that the Bible is God's inerrant word; that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, etc.); but most disagreements between genuine Christians are not about the essentials.

[Fidei Defensor]

11 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Genuine Christians should certainly agree on the essentials (the Trinity; deity of Christ, virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, shed blood and death on the cross, bodily resurrection, bodily ascension into heaven; that the Bible is God's inerrant word; that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, etc.); but most disagreements between genuine Christians are not about the essentials.

Probably the most divisive subject and impediment to unity is Eschatology. Brothers and Sisters in Christ can usually get along until you start discussing Premillennial, Amillenial, Postmillenial, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Partial-Trib, and Post-Trib. Its sad, it should be joyous to discuss our Lord Jesus’ Return, but instead its akin to politics, “are you Republican or Democrat?” With vitriol being fired from all sides.  

Edited July 7, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Probably the most divisive subject and impediment to unity is Eschatology. Brothers and Sisters in Christ can usually get along until you start discussing Premillennial, Amillenial, Postmillenial, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Partial-Trib, and Post-Trib. Its sad, it should be joyous to discuss our Lord Jesus’ Return, but instead its akin to politics, “are you Republican or Democrat?” With vitriol being fired from all sides.  

I almost never discuss Eschatology....  Apart from anything else, I have not found a way to reconcile any of the various theories with all that the Bible says.  Just when I think I've found one that harmonises fully with the Bible, I realise that there is some Scripture or other that doesn't (or at least I can't see how it fits).

It takes a lot of knowledge and understanding to piece together all that Revelation, Daniel, and other places, teach about it; and the problem seems to be that some people think that, having read a book or two (usually from only one viewpoint), they are now experts.

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

I almost never discuss Eschatology....  Apart from anything else, I have not found a way to reconcile any of the various theories with all that the Bible says.  Just when I think I've found one that harmonises fully with the Bible, I realise that there is some Scripture or other that doesn't (or at least I can't see how it fits).

It takes a lot of knowledge and understanding to piece together all that Revelation, Daniel, and other places, teach about it; and the problem seems to be that some people think that, having read a book or two (usually from only one viewpoint), they are now experts.

I think when you read Matthew 24, Luke 17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11, Revelation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, there are definitive hallmarks that make up the end: 

▪️A Great Apostasy or Falling Away (Matthew 24:10-12, 2 Thessalonains 2:3 NASB) 

 ▪️The Rise of the Man of Lawlessness, The Antichrist, also known as the Beast of the Sea (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Revelation 13 whole chapter) 

▪️Wars, Famines, Plagues, Calamities. (Matthew 24, Revelation 6, 8, 9, 16, 17). 

▪️The Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 13:7, Revealtion 14:12) 

▪️Christ Returns on the clouds of heaven (Mark 13:26, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:16-18) 

▪️Resurrection of the Dead (1 Corinthians 15:52)

▪️The Last Judgement (Revelation 20:11-13, 1 Peter 4:5) 

▪️A New Heaven and Earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1-4). 

There are details in between all of these, but these are repeated  events in the majority of Scriptures. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[David1701]

39 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I think when you read Matthew 24, Luke 17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11, Revelation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, there are definitive hallmarks that make up the end: 

▪️A Great Apostasy or Falling Away (Matthew 24:10-12, 2 Thessalonains 2:3 NASB) 

 ▪️The Rise of the Man of Lawlessness, The Antichrist, also known as the Beast of the Sea (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Revelation 13 whole chapter) 

▪️Wars, Famines, Plagues, Calamities. (Matthew 24, Revelation 6, 8, 9, 16, 17). 

▪️The Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 13:7, Revealtion 14:12) 

▪️Christ Returns on the clouds of heaven (Mark 13:26, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:16-18) 

▪️Resurrection of the Dead (1 Corinthians 15:52)

▪️The Last Judgement (Revelation 20:11-13, 1 Peter 4:5) 

▪️A New Heaven and Earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1-4). 

There are details in between all of these, but these are repeated  events in the majority of Scriptures. 

It's the timing and details that are the difficulties.

There are certain elements that I'm sure about; but I'm going to resist the temptation to elaborate.  

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

It's the timing and details that are the difficulties.

There are certain elements that I'm sure about; but I'm going to resist the temptation to elaborate.  

Exactly! Time tables made by “experts.” Why do we fight over time tables made by mere men? Why not revel in the hallmarks or events themselves. But as aforementioned eschatology gets bogged down in politics or the time tables of the ‘scholars.’ 

We could all unite in agreeing on the the hallmarks or events, how long and exactly what order and time table is open to interpretation except when Christ makes it clearly linear, first this and then that, example, “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison” (Revelation 20:7), and “Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29) 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[David1701]

44 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Exactly! Time tables made by “experts.” Why do we fight over time tables made by mere men? Why not revel in the hallmarks or events themselves. But as aforementioned eschatology gets bogged down in politics or the time tables of the ‘scholars.’ 

We could all unite in agreeing on the the hallmarks or events, how long and exactly what order and time table is open to interpretation except when Christ makes it clearly linear, first this and then that, example, “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison” (Revelation 20:7), and “Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29) 

The identities of the Whore of Babylon and the anti-Christ are also hot potatoes.  Those are elements that I am absolutely sure about.  The Reformers all knew....

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

The identities of the Whore of Babylon and the anti-Christ are also hot potatoes.  Those are elements that I am absolutely sure about.  The Reformers all knew....

I know, I hear the antichrist must be German, no wait an Arab.. he’ll be Greek for sure, maybe homosexual? The point is we will know him when he rises (2 Thessalonians 2:1-11, Revelation 13). 

The Whore Babylon (Revelation 19) was believed as you allude to, by the Reformers to be The Roman Catholic Church. 

We know the whore sits on seven hills, “"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.” (Revelation 17:9).

It gets clearer its a city, “Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’” (Revelation 19:10). 

There are two cities that sit on seven hills, Rome and Jerusalem. 

Rome’s Hills: 

The seven hills are:

• Aventine Hill (Latin, Aventinus; Italian, Aventino)
• Caelian Hill (Cælius, Celio)
• Capitoline Hill (Capitolinus, Campidoglio)
• Esquiline Hill (Esquilinus, Esquilino)
• Palatine Hill (Palatinus, Palatino)
• Quirinal Hill (Quirinalis, Quirinale)
• Viminal Hill (Viminalis, Viminale)

Jerusalem Hills: 

Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

1. The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],
    
2. The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two], 
    
3. The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13). 
    
4. On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name), 
    
5. The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],
    
6. To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],
    
7. And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."

So Babylon could be either Rome or Jerusalem. But Jerusalem has been called a whore before, “

Jerusalem’s Unfaithfulness

1Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2“Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her abominations 3and tell her that this is what the Lord GOD says to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth were in the land of the Canaanites. Your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite.4On the day of your birth your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water for cleansing. You were not rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. 5No one cared enough for you to do even one of these things out of compassion for you. Instead, you were thrown out into the open field, because you were despised on the day of your birth.

6Then I passed by and saw you wallowing in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, ‘Live!’ There I said to you, ‘Live!’ 7I made you thrive like a plant of the field. You grew up and matured and became very beautiful. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, but you were naked and bare.

8Then I passed by and saw you, and you were indeed old enough for love. So I spread My cloak over you and covered your nakedness. I pledged Myself to you, entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine, declares the Lord GOD. 9Then I bathed you with water, rinsed off your blood, and anointed you with oil. 10I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk. 11I adorned you with jewelry, and I put bracelets on your wrists and a chain around your neck. 12I put a ring in your nose, earrings on your ears, and a beautiful crown upon your head.

13So you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was made of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey, and oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be queen. 14Your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfect in the splendor I bestowed on you, declares the Lord GOD.

15But because of your fame, you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot. You lavished your favors on everyone who passed by, and your beauty was theirs for the asking. 16You took some of your garments and made colorful high places for yourself, and on them you prostituted yourself. Such things should not have happened; never should they have occurred!

17You also took the fine jewelry of gold and silver I had given you, and you made male idols with which to prostitute yourself. 18You took your embroidered garments to cover them, and you set My oil and incense before them. 19And you set before them as a pleasing aroma the food I had given you—the fine flour, oil, and honey that I had fed you. That is what happened, declares the Lord GOD.

20You even took the sons and daughters you bore to Me and sacrificed them as food to idols. Was your prostitution not enough?21You slaughtered My children and delivered them up through the fire to idols.

22And in all your abominations and acts of prostitution, you did not remember the days of your youth when you were naked and bare, wallowing in your own blood.

23Woe! Woe to you, declares the Lord GOD. And in addition to all your other wickedness, 24you built yourself a mound and made yourself a lofty shrine in every public square. 25At the head of every street you built your lofty shrines and degraded your beauty. With increasing promiscuity, you spread your legs to all who passed by. 26You prostituted yourself with your lustful neighbors, the Egyptians, and increased your promiscuity to provoke Me to anger.

27Therefore I stretched out My hand against you and reduced your portion. I gave you over to the desire of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd conduct. 28Then you prostituted yourself with the Assyrians, because you were not yet satisfied. Even after that, you were still not satisfied. 29So you extended your promiscuity to Chaldea,a the land of merchants—but even with this you were not satisfied!

30How weak-willed is your heart,bdeclares the Lord GOD, while you do all these things, the acts of a shameless prostitute! 31But when you built your mounds at the head of every street and made your lofty shrines in every public square, you were not even like a prostitute, because you scorned payment.

32You adulterous wife! You receive strangers instead of your own husband! 33Men give gifts to all their prostitutes, but you gave gifts to all your lovers. You bribed them to come to you from everywhere for your illicit favors. 34So your prostitution is the opposite of that of other women: No one solicited your favors, and you paid a fee instead of receiving one; so you are the very opposite!

Judgment on Jerusalem

35Therefore, O prostitute, hear the word of the LORD! 36This is what the Lord GOD says: Because you poured out your wealth and exposed your nakedness in your promiscuity with your lovers and with all your detestable idols, and because of the blood of your children which you gave to them,37therefore I will surely gather all the lovers with whom you found pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and expose you before them, and they will see you completely naked. 38And I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and those who shed blood; so I will bring upon you the wrath of your bloodshed and jealousy.

39Then I will deliver you into the hands of your lovers, and they will level your mounds and tear down your lofty shrines. They will strip off your clothes, take your fine jewelry, and leave you naked and bare.40They will bring a mob against you, who will stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords.41Then they will burn down your houses and execute judgment against you in the sight of many women. 

I will put an end to your prostitution, and you will never again pay your lovers. 42So I will lay to rest My wrath against you, and My jealousy will turn away from you. Then I will be calm and no longer angry.

43Because you did not remember the days of your youth, but enraged Me with all these things, I will surely bring your deeds down upon your own head, declares the Lord GOD. Have you not committed this lewdness on top of all your other abominations?

44Behold, all who speak in proverbs will quote this proverb about you: 

‘Like mother, like daughter.’

45You are the daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and children. You are the sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. 46Your older sister was Samaria, who lived with her daughters to your north; and your younger sister was Sodom, who lived with her daughters to your south. 47And you not only walked in their ways and practiced their abominations, but soon you were more depraved than they were.

48As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did as you and your daughters have done.49Now this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and complacent; they did not help the poor and needy. 50Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them, as you have seen.c

51Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have multiplied your abominations beyond theirs, and all the abominations you have committed have made your sisters appear righteous. 52So now you must bear your disgrace, since you have brought justification for your sisters. For they appear more righteous than you, because your sins were more vile than theirs. So you too must bear your shame and disgrace, since you have made your sisters appear righteous.

53But I will restore Sodom and her daughters from captivity,d as well as Samaria and her daughters. And I will restore you along with them. 54So you will bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you did to comfort them.

55And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state. You and your daughters will also return to your former state. 56Did you not treat your sister Sodom as an object of scorn in the day of your pride,57before your wickedness was uncovered? Even so, you are now scorned by the daughters of Edome and all those around her, and by the daughters of the Philistines—all those around you who despise you. 58You will bear the consequences of your lewdness and your abominations, declares the LORD.” (Ezekiel 16:1-58). 

If you come Ezekiel’s description with Revelation 18, there are some major similiarities, 

“After this I saw another angel(A)coming down from heaven.(B) He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.(C) 2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’[a](D)
    She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,(E)
    a haunt for every unclean bird,
    a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.(F)
3 For all the nations have drunk
    the maddening wine of her adulteries.(G)
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,(H)
    and the merchants of the earth grew rich(I) from her excessive luxuries.”(J)

Warning to Escape Babylon’s Judgment

4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
    and God has remembered her crimes.
6 Give back to her as she has given;
    pay her back double for what she has done.
    Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
7 Give her as much torment and grief
    as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
    ‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;
    I will never mourn.’
8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
    death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
    for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Threefold Woe Over Babylon’s Fall

9 “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning,they will weep and mourn over her. 10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    you mighty city of Babylon!
In one hour your doom has come!’

11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore — 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.  14 “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off,terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out:“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
    and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city(?’ 19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning( cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    where all who had ships on the sea
    became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
    Rejoice, you people of God!
    Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
    with the judgment she imposed on you.”

The Finality of Babylon’s Doom

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence
    the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
    never to be found again.
22 The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters,
    will never be heard in you again.
No worker of any trade
    will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
    will never be heard in you again.
23 The light of a lamp
    will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
    will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s important people.(BF)
    By your magic spell(BG) all the nations were led astray.
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.” (Revelation 18:1-24)

And yet Rome fits it too because from it came another gospel (Galatians 1:4-10, 2 Corinthians 11:2-4) that had to be confronted bu The Reformation. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Fidei Defensor