ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Actually, people - MANY people - ARE in the atmospheric heavens. Transportaton by helicopter, airplane, or jet, and even including rockets are thousands of people IN the atmosphere. At the time Yesha`yahu wrote out God's prophecy, the skies were empty, and he may not have truly understood what he was writing, but that's the nature of YHWH'S prophecy.

 

Hi Retro,

 Yes we know that people who are alive are going to & fro in the atmospheric heavens however I meant those who were dead. Had a friend who flew overseas with another person. The trip was long and the second person had a room on the plane with a bed and a shower. A shower! on a plane. Amazing.

regards, Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

This is as I see it -

1. Earthly Jerusalem - represents the Law, bringing Israel to Christ. (Gal. 3: 24)

2. Heavenly Jerusalem - represents the heavenly promise through Christ.

`...in Christ Jesus that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.`(Gal. 3: 14)

`...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.` (Gal. 5: 18)

Paul is just comparing the 2 covenants - earthly and heavenly - law and the promise (thr Christ)

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn C.

Interpreting Galatians 4:21 to 31 in this way feels to me like the slippage of gears. Somehow, your conclusions are not on track with the original comparison. You've "slipped gears," so to speak.

I will try to highlight with color the TWO factors being compared:

Galatians 4:21-5:6
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law (the Torah), do ye not hear the law (the Torah)?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (Ishmael) by a bondmaid (Hagar), the other (Isaac) by a freewoman (Sarah).
23 But he (Ishmael) who was of the bondwoman (Hagar) was born after the flesh (a human attempt to provide a son); but he (Isaac) of the freewoman (Sarah) was by promise (God's promise to provide a son).
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not (Sarah); break forth and cry, thou that travailest not (Sarah): for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
KJV

25 τὸ γὰρ Ἁγὰρ Σινᾶ ὄρος ἐστὶν ἐν τῇ Ἀραβίᾳ· συστοιχεῖ δὲ τῇ νῦν Ἰερουσαλήμ δουλεύει δὲ μετὰ τῶν τέκνων αὐτῆς.
26 ἡ δὲ ἄνω Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἐλευθέρα ἐστίν ἥτις ἐστὶν μήτηρ πάντων ἡμῶν·

This translates to ...

25 the for Hagar Sinai mountain is in the Arabia; marches-in-line-with but the current Jerusalem is-slave but with the children of-her.
26 the but northward Jerusalem free is who is mother all of-us.

Putting it into English order, we get...

25 For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in the Arabia; it falls-in-line-with the current Jerusalem but is in slavery with her children.
26 but the Jerusalem northward is free who is mother of us all.

This passage is NOT talking about the "New Jerusalem"; it's talking about the Jerusalem they knew which was farther north than Mount Sinai. The contrast is between these two mountains, NOT between two Jerusalems!

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

25 the for Hagar Sinai mountain is in the Arabia; marches-in-line-with but the current Jerusalem is-slave but with the children of-her.
26 the but northward Jerusalem free is who is mother all of-us.

Putting it into English order, we get...

25 For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in the Arabia; it falls-in-line-with the current Jerusalem but is in slavery with her children.
26 but the Jerusalem northward is free who is mother of us all.

This passage is NOT talking about the "New Jerusalem"; it's talking about the Jerusalem they knew which was farther north than Mount Sinai. The contrast is between these two mountains, NOT between two Jerusalems!

Hi Retro,

`...for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which is now.....but the Jerusalem above is free...``(Gal 4: 25 & 26)

So can you give scripture to your thought of that `Jerusalem above,` being farther north?

Marilyn.

[n2thelight]

On 6/16/2017 at 8:22 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi n2thelight,

I agree, that Christ is not yet on His own throne, authority. However we see that coronation in Rev. 4 & 5 where the Father gives the Son the authority and power to execute judgment upon the rebellious nations etc. This investiture is BEFORE the trib. and millennium, and is in the third heaven, the seat of Christ`s authority and power.

`...far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

It is from this seat of power and authority given of the Father, that the Lord rules through out the trib. then in the millennium and on through the ages to come.

No scriptures to show that His seat of power and authority is from His `footstool` the earth. Christ will rule over every realm and dominion. All authority and power will be under Him, not over Him.

regards, Marilyn.

 

Don't see a connection in Rev 4 or 5 ,can you give me the verses?

When does Christ return to earth?

Is not the Day of the Lord the start of the millennium?

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

 

[Swords99]

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Don't see a connection in Rev 4 or 5 ,can you give me the verses?

When does Christ return to earth?

Is not the Day of the Lord the start of the millennium?

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

 

The Day of the Lord begins with the opening of the Tribulation right up to and including the 2nd Coming.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Swords99

[n2thelight]

5 minutes ago, Swords99 said:

The Day of the Lord begins with the opening of the Tribulation right up to and including the 2nd Coming.

The Day of the Lord ends the tribulation,and starts the millennium,ie,the 7th day.

[Swords99]

14 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

The Day of the Lord ends the tribulation,and starts the millennium,ie,the 7th day.

The Tribulation and the 2nd Coming to end the Tribulation are all associated with the day of the Lord. "The day of the Lord" is a time of wrath and Judgment. We see this mentioned in the OT. For example:

Isaiah 13:9-11 "behold the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil."

The Millennium or the kingdom age, is a time when the Lord is in charge, but it is not considered a day of wrath and vengeance.

 

 

[enoob57]

Pretrib is the only view that allows for 'IMMINENCE'

The Rapture is presented in the New Testament as an event that from man's

viewpoint could occur at any moment, and believers are to be looking for it all

the time (1 Cor 1:7; 16:22; Phil 3:20; 4:5; 1 Thess 1:9-10; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28;

Jude 21). Only the pretrib position allows for an imminent, any moment, signless

coming of Christ for His own.

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

`...for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which is now.....but the Jerusalem above is free...``(Gal 4: 25 & 26)

So can you give scripture to your thought of that `Jerusalem above,` being farther north?

Marilyn.

It's right there in Galatians 4:26. See, this is the importance of checking into the meaning of words:

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

25 τὸ γὰρ Ἁγὰρ Σινᾶ ὄρος ἐστὶν ἐν τῇ Ἀραβίᾳ· συστοιχεῖ δὲ τῇ νῦν Ἰερουσαλήμ δουλεύει δὲ μετὰ τῶν τέκνων αὐτῆς.
26 ἡ δὲ ἄνω Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἐλευθέρα ἐστίν ἥτις ἐστὶν μήτηρ πάντων ἡμῶν·

The word "anoo," spelled "alpha-nu-omega," is given this definition:

Quote

 

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

 

Strong's Number: 507 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin ano from (473) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Ano 1:376,63 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech an'-o  Adverb  Definition up, upwards, above, on high of the quarters of the heaven, northward of countries, inland, up from the coast of time, formerly

 

(For more, see BibleStudyTools.com.)

Because these two mountains are so far apart, one would most likely see the difference in distance by the position of the stars, Polaris getting higher and higher in the night sky as one proceeds northward.

There are NOT two Jerusalems being contrasted, here. Instead, we are contrasting the MOUNTAINS: Mount Zion (which is actually the mountain RANGE, not a peak), upon which Jerusalem is built, with the Mount Sinai (which is also a collection of peaks). They KNEW that they had to travel northward for the children of Israel to journey from Egypt to the Promised Land (today called insultingly "Palestine"), thus the description, "ἡ ... ἄνω Ἰερουσαλὴμ." "The northward Jerusalem."

Edited June 20, 2017 by Retrobyter
to add a phrase

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Swords99 said:

The Day of the Lord begins with the opening of the Tribulation right up to and including the 2nd Coming.

 

2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The Day of the Lord ends the tribulation,and starts the millennium,ie,the 7th day.

Shalom, gentlemen.

Actually the "Day of the Lord" IS the whole Millennium, with all the events that lead up to the Millennium. When the Messiah Yeshua`, the "Sun of righteousness," returns, He will give us a 1000-year Day!

Malachi 4:1-6
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
KJV

This is what Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:

2 Peter 3:7-12
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (The GWTJ)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

It BEGINS as a "thief in the night," but it ENDS with the Judgment and Fire, lasting a "THOUSAND YEARS!"

This corresponds to Revelation 19:11-20:15:

Revelation 19:11-20:15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
...
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (lake of burning sulfur), where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

He comes quite unexpectedly from the sky, and after He has reigned for the first 1000 years of His Kingdom, judging and ruling over nations, the Great White Throne Judgment occurs, when death, hades (the Unseen), and those not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of burning sulfur.

It's also what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Then, He turns over the rulership of the world to His Father, and continues as the King of Israel under His Father.