Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Church is in Heaven brother. You believe in the Rapture like me right? The Seals start being opened at the MID-WAY POINT. The Church is in Heaven. Those Martyrs were murdered by the Anti-Christ who comes forth in the First Seal.

This is just preconceptions created by human reasoning all gone wrong. You see, God spent months teaching me chapters 4 & 5, showing me what the context is for the first seals. You are completely ignoring the context for the first seals.  I have written it before, but my guess is, preconceptions kept you from understanding. Please, take off all preconceptions and be open to learn. Jesus asked me three questions I could not answer.  Yes, I heard what seemed to be an audible voice.

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the father, when John saw into the throne room? There are a dozen verses telling you that is where I went to be.

2. Why was I not immediately found in that first search John watched for one worthy to break the seals - a search that ended in failure? If you read ahead, you will see I was found worthy. So why was I not found in that first search?

3. If you notice, the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room in chapter 4. But I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended. WHY is He still there?

(These are abbreviated, but they will suffice.)

Please put this in perspective: this is GOD, the creator of the universe teaching me His intended meaning of these two chapters, 4 & 5. Oh, He also said, "until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this part of John's visions." 

So I struggled for weeks, hours a day, trying to answer His questions. Finally one day, He had mercy on my slow thinking, and sent me to chapter 12 to learn "History lesson." (His words, not mine.) Once I had "history lesson" in my mind, He said I could go back to chapters 4 & 5 again. And in five minutes I had the answers to all the questions.

What then is the intention of the Author in chapters 4 & 5? It is to establish the context of the first seals -  and the timing. What is the right answer to each question?

In all of time, and before time and after time, there was only a speck of time where the second person of the Godhead was not at the right hand of the first person of the Godhead, and that was the 32 or 33 years He was on the earth.  So WHY was He not immediately seen in the throne room at the right hand of the Father?

The answer to #1 is that John was seeing in this vision the throne room of his past - a time while Jesus was not in heaven, but was on the earth.

The answer to #2 is that that throne room of the past was a time before Jesus rose from the dead - for the moment He rose from the dead, He was found worthy. See how this is setting the timing?

The answer to #3 is even more specific: the Holy Spirit was still there because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. But in chapter 5, Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. So now God has pinpointed the exact time: Jesus told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. As soon as Mary left, Jesus ascended, and John got to see that moment in time, in his vision.

So these two chapters shows timing and the movement of time. And it establishes the moment in time that Jesus got the book out of the hand of the Father and began to open the seals. No one can find 2000 years in chapter 5, after Jesus got the book - because God did not put 2000 years in there. Jesus got the book into His hands around 32 or 33 AD and began immediately to break the seals. This is not imagination: it is bible truth, written down since John wrote.

Therefore, seal #1 was opened around 32 AD and MUST represent something of that time. To imagine this is about the Beast of Rev. 13 is to completely ignore the context. Anyone can pull a verse out of its context and make it say almost anything.  But it only leads to confusion.

John used the color white 17 other times (if memory serves me right) and each time it was to represent righteousness.  A horse in prophecy probably represents war. So we have a righeous war or righteous overcoming being shown to us. What was the ONLY righteous entity on earth in 33 AD? ONLY the church that was MADE RIGHTEOUS by the blood of Jesus. IN truth, there is nothing else this first seal can represent but the CHURCH sent out with the gospel to make disciples of all nations.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These three ride together. They were limited in their theater of operation to 1/4th of the earth, that 1/4 centered on Jerusalem.

It is not until we get to seal 5 that we see a long period of waiting. Those martyrs of the CHURCH AGE (remember the time is around 33 AD) wonder how long it will be before judgment time. The answer is, they will have to wait until the last martyr of the church age. And that will not be until the pretrib rapture closes the church age.

Therefore the church has been waiting between seals 5 and 6 for the last martyr to be killed. THEN, and only then will it be time for judgment.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Chapters 4, 5, 7 and 19 are the Church in Heaven. Chapter 6 and the 5th Seal is the Martyrs under the Alter, Jesus tells them to wait until their fellow servants have been killed also, or until the Beasts 42 Months reign is over. 

All you are showing us is an incredible lack of understanding of the intent of God in these chapters.

 

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Revelation is not in order brother. The Seals, Trumpets and Seals are in Order. Other parts are not in order per se. That's a proven fact. Why do you insist on something being in order when God never says its in order. Its OBVIOUS that chapter 14, 16 and 18 are the same events. Its obvious that if Armageddon happens in Rev. 16, that's the same event as Jesus returning and defeating the Beast in Rev. 19 also. Rev. 16 says IT IS DONE....

Again all you are showing us is that you have very little understanding of the real intent of the Author. I suggest you take all your preconceptions and chuck them into file 13 and start over with a clean slate. By the way, this is not just my opinion here.  That "fact" is only proven to your way of thinking, which is in error.  I don't think it is in order, I KNOW it is in order. When people have tried to prove otherwise, I see it is only a huge lack of understanding. For example, when you read "it is done" you have one thought: in error. I know the meaning, for God taught me: it is the END of the 70th week. God marked the beginning, midpoint and ending so we would know.

Again, it is only your imagination that Armageddon happens in chapter 16. It does not. Neither does Christ return then.  You miss the intent of the Author.  Did you ever wonder why the marriage is not until chapter 19? There is good reason. The Old Testament saints will not rise until the 7th vial. We see that by the world's greatest earthquake. When God raises people who died before the flood, that event will cause this great earthquake.  The marriage must wait until all the righteous has been raised. So the marriage will probably begin shortly after the 7th vial that ends the week.

The 7th vial does not completely destroy Jerusalem, and Israel still exists, so the armies that are left are determined to erase Israel forever. Jerusalem is attacked and overcome. And burned. But apparently there are captives being held there, and when Jesus touches down, a way is made for them to escape.  I can only use human reasoning here, because God did not teach me this part of Revelation.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 6, 12 and 13 are all happening at the MIDWAY POINT, that is why 1260 Days, 42 Months and a Time, times and a 1/2 time is so important in Revelation. Everything REVOLVES around the MIDWAY POINT. 42 months 1260 days twice, Rev. 6 is the MIDWAY POINT,

My brother, I hate to tell you, but this is all MYTH. John marches through time in a very straight line, from the beginning of the church age, to chapter 11.  But starting with the city being trampled, and the two witnesses testifying, and the woman fleeing, etc, John then has 5 parallel paths to the end of the week. And really, 6 paths because his narrative is like another path to the end as he is shown all these other things.

Another thing Jesus spoke: "every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time..."

So you are right, chapters 11 - 13 are midpoint chapters.  But John uses parentheses there and most people miss them. For example, it appears to the casual reader that the two witnesses die before the 7th trumpet sounds. But this is not at all the intent of the Author. Chapter 11:4-13 are written as a parenthesis.

After chapter 11, chapter 12 speaks of events right after the midpoint, as in the woman fleeing and the battle to take Satan down. Chapter 13 begins right in sync with the midpoint, but again John uses parenthesis to take us through the last half of the week with the Beast and False prophet. But chapter 14 is right back to the midpoint or shortly after. john finally leaves the midpoint time in chapter 15 when those  beheaded finally begin showing up in heaven.  Therefore, ANY attempt to say a latter chapter is in sync with a former chapter is simply myth.  There is simply NO TRUTH is rearranging Revelation.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I think Rev. 17 happens at the MIDWAY POINT because I think its False Religions being destroyed, and when would the Anti-Christ do that? As he is Conquering, of course, he destroys Islam and all Religions at the same time,

This is myth, from human reasoning. You have a preconception that all religions are destroyed early on. God did not teach me this, so my human reasoning tells me that Satan would not divide himself and lose as Jesus said. He will NOT "destroy" all these false religions he has created. Rather, he will roll them all over into one: all  false religions become one very deceived mass of people, MOST of those alive will believe that the BEAST is really God himself in a human body.  Satan's plan is, of course, to get all people to take the mark and be doomed. I am convinced this is why Satan is pushing a posttrib rapture so hard: he is convinced that if people are left behind, he can get them to take the mark and be doomed. 

Daniel tells us he takes out three kings and kingdoms, but nothing about taking out false religions. He will TURN those false religions by deception, convinced all on the earth (except for a very few) that HE IS GOD.

Edited July 6, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I am talking about the FUTURE, although it could be some people on earth now who are already deceived. MY POINT is, some people who are on earth when the Anti-Christ comes to power, will have been serving Satan for years before he came to power, some via witchcraft, some via atheism, some via the Lusts and Greed of life, some who just HATE GOD, etc. etc. That was my point. 

Yes, the Weak will serve Satan. But not Israel who are protected in the Wilderness and not the Martyrs of course. Many in Islam will of course die, they die now for 70 Virgins, surely they will die at that time instead of worshiping a MAN BEAST.

I agree that MOST OF THE WORLD today is serving Satan but they don't know it.

I disagree on Muslims. They will be deceived right along will the people from all other religions. Finally all will get to SEE god and see miracles to prove he is god. So a good Buddhist will be deceived right along with a good Muslim and a good Hindu. Satan is not stupid. He will not destroy what has taken him thousands of years to build. He will just deceive them further by turning them all to the Beast and false prophet. And they will all follow as the blind leading the blind. NO ONE can be left sitting on a fence, so to speak. All will be force to choose a side, when the mark becomes enforced.

As we know from Old Testament prophecies, only 1/3 of Israel will be saved. It appears that some are held captive in Jerusalem. But that is only my opinion.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I believe the Wrath of the Lamb is Jesus opening the Seals.

STOP! Just stop and think what you just wrote: you KNOW that God is not mad at believers and CAUSING them to be martyrs! How silly would that be - that God Himself is creating martyrs.  God is not angry with His church. Seal one is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel: and that is God's will. Seals 2-4 will be Satan's attempts to stop the church. If people die, it will be SATAN's anger, not God's. The seals, 1-5 are church history. We are waiting on seal 6 which begins God's wrath.

This book that Jesus Got into His hands: I am CONVINCED it is the title deed or lease document to planet earth: A document that evidently Satan knew about. I am sure he thought if he could get Adam to sin, the world would become his forever. I think he was SURE no one could ever escape from hell to rise again. He was SURE no one would EVER be found worthy to break the seals  and open the book that would spell out his doom.

But Jesus WAS found worthy: He conquered death and rose from the dead. It was absolutely necessary that SOMEONE be found worthy to break these seals, else Satan would remain the god of this world forever.

AS the seals are opened, finally the 7th will be reached, which officially begins the 70th week. And then, finally, the book can be opened to allow the 7 trumpets to be sounded. Always remember, the trumpets are what is written INSIDE the book or scroll, and no trumpet will ever be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. To think otherwise is just not to understand this book.

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Wrath of God the Father is the Vials being poured out,

Why not just believe John instead of coming up with a theory that does not fit? OF COURSE God is angry and His anger will be in the vials of His wrath: that goes without saying. But WHERE does His wrath begin? It will begin right where John tells us it will: at the 6th seal, "the day of His wrath has come." It will be the start of the Day of the Lord. His wrath then will be in every trumpet judgment and every vial.

 

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Chapter 18 is a PAST event in accordance with Rev. 16, how can Armageddon have HAPPENED and there still be a Rev. 17 and 18?

Sorry, but this is MYTH caused by preconceptions. Our church Fathers were not stupid. They put 18 on it because 18 comes after 17, etc. Do you imagine that God was trying to make this a confusion book rather than a revealing book? NO WAY! It is a revealing. It is only human imagination that makes it confusion. You only IMAGINE Armageddon happens in chapter 16. You are very mistaken! Jesus does not return at the end of the week. If so, all would know WHEN He would return. But the truth is, NO ONE WILL KNOW.

The truth is, those events of chapters 17 and 18 will take place BETWEEN the end of the week and Jesus' return.

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Harlot is killed off in Rev. 6.

Your theories are very very far from truth, my friend. God does not get to the harlot until chapter 17, which is AFTER the 70th week has ended. However, the Harlot is about the events of the last half of the week, how the Beast and false prophet will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem.

Rev. 6 is CHURCH HISTORY time. See how far off you are? 2000 years are a LOT of time. Please, my friend, leave Revelation as it is written and just UNDERSTAND it. It is not that difficult if you just take it as it is written. There is NO NEED to rearrange it. ANY theory that must rearrange is simply wrong.

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

1. Israel would never come to a Peace/Security Agreement with any person who was associated with Islam, whereas they would never let their guard down.

Did it every occur to you that they enter into this agreement by deception? Suppose in the soon to come war, Israel soundly defeats the Muslim nations once again. But world pressure is great on Israel, as always, so the United Nations forces Israel to stop. And a peace agreement is reached where Israel is allowed to have the temple mount to build their temple. Israel may not really know WHO they are making this peace agreement with. However, Satan's man will be in the background somewhere. But Israel will know be wise to this. They have bowed to world pressure over and over and over.

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Daniel 8:25 says he destroys many by PEACE.

I have told you over and over, this is how Antiochus did it. It is NOT ABOUT Antichrist. However, it is very possible the Antichrist will do it the same way. Satan has no new ideas. He just uses what has worked before.  We really don't know HOW this agreement will come about.

 

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

2. Satan is not dumb, and this the Anti-Christ will not be dumb. He is not going to try to get 2 Billion Muslims to Worship a MAN GOD/ A Beast.

Satan is not dumb. that I can agree with. But all Muslims are already HIS: lock, stock and barrel as we say. He OWNS them. He will convince them, just as he will all other people in the world, that the Beast is THE VERY GOD THEY SERVE.  They will happily take the mark. If the truth were known, they may already have the mark.  He will have no need to kill Muslims for they are his already.

 

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

3. The Anti-Christ has to be an Assyrian, born in Greece, who comes to power in Europe via the Fourth Beasts terrain. Its in the Scriptures, Daniel 7 and 8 tell us exactly where he will be born. Daniel 11 tells us he is an Atheist. 

This is only YOUR human reasoning and millions of believers will disagree.

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

4. The World would never follow a Radical Muslim, that's just not going to happen.

They will follow a man that proves he is the god of the Muslims. The bible tells us he will deceive the entire world. this will include all false religions. Satan will not destroy them, he will DECEIVE them into taking the mark. This is not so hard to believe, for they are already very deceived.

 

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

5. All the Islam Nations in the world could combine, and they couldn't conquer anybody, not even a FLEA in a real War. Sure they blow people up but Israel defeated all the Arab nations by themselves a couple of times. It just a fantasy.

HOW did Antiochus conquer? It is written that it was NOT by his power. In other words, he had supernatural help. His help came from Satan. Without much doubt,  Alexander the Great had God's help.  And this Beast of Revelation is going to have the Destroyer's help: Satan himself. What Did John write? That the world will wonder who could ever defeat him. It is not fantasy, it is scripture.

 

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

he is going to GAIN CRED by Destroying Radical Islam, the people of Europe will finally rise up against these Crazy Muslims, and they will elect this FAR LEFT ATHEIST.....Mark my words.

Without much doubt, it will be three Muslim nations that he takes out. Sorry, you have proven how poor your theories are. I will mark JOHN's words.

 

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

6. What is the Prevailing World Religion at this moment of the ELITES? When the Church is Raptured, what will the United States look like? LIBERALS GALORE, FREAKS, DOPE HEADS, God haters, Green worshipers etc. etc. This whole world will be a Liberal Bastion once the Church is Departed/Raptured. They are all angling now for a One World Government. The Environmentalists, the Homosexual advocates, the Elitists, etc. etc. etc. They all hate Religion in reality man, they hate Christianity, they will all detest Islam by this time. These Elites don't want Religions around. Look around you, the Dem Party will be the types that will be leading this One World Government. 

I agree with most of this. But all these are and will be OWNED by the devil. He will be able to turn them in the way he wants them to go, by taking the mark. His goals is for all to take his mark.  They may hate religion, but Satan will show them a god they can SEE. Seeing is believing. The whole word will be deceived into thinking this man is the god of creation.

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Quote

 For the Greek, apostasia does not include any meaning at all about what is being departed from. If Paul meant a departure from the faith, he would have had to include the word faith. But all we have is a departure from SOMETHING.

This is false and fails the logic test. 

You can attempt to ADD to scripture and imagine that apostasia includes the idea of departing from FAITH, but it is not there: you will have added it. All we are given is a departing. However, hidden in this departing is the idea of a PART of a whole removed from the whole as in being departed from the whole. Sorry, but this most certainly CAN BE a spacial departure. This is absolutely proven by a very similar word used for divorce, where one of two absolutely departs physically. This is not a difficult concept.

"Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in
one case in the 6th century."

Where a part of a group is removed from the whole, (as in divorce) it is a spacial and physical departing.

36 minutes ago, inchrist said:

No example of a spatial departure can be found in the Greek koine period, none. The only argument you can draw from is classical greek, however classical greek was not the language of the day, kione acquired the limited meaning of religious apostasy or political defection, so why would a qualification phrase, such as a departure of faith be needed for apostasia? 

This argument is weak also. Have you ever heard of someone "coining" a new meaning for a word? If nothing else, Paul coined a new use from the word Apostasia.

 

39 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Yet pretribs somehow think that Paul most include the word faith. Why would Paul need to qualify a primary meaning?

It is derived from two Greek words, apo (meaning "away from") and stasis (meaning "standing") in its simplist definition. IF someone goes "away from" someone else, they are departing. If they go instantly the other is left motionless and stationary during that moment.

This is why a very similar word " apostasion," is used for divorce. One of the whole (two in this case) goes "away from" or departs from the other.  Both Greek words are made up of Apo and histēmi .

So Paul DID need to add something so one would know this meant a departing from the faith, for that is simply NOT INCLUDED in the meaning of the word.  When it was used one other time, it was listed as a departing from MOSES. that clarification was need there, so it would be needed here: UNLESS the context shows us what is being departed from,

48 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Quote

Next, please explain how a falling away, something evil in itself, can restrain evil. Common sense would tell us that if all the believers fell away, nothing would hinder his revealing.

Hence why he will then be revealed, seriously not complicated stuff.

Yet, there has always been a falling away and he has NOT BEEN revealed, not for 2000 years. Therefore a falling away from something is a very weak argument and simply does not fit the context. 100% of believers are not going to fall away anyway, they will be caught up.

 

50 minutes ago, inchrist said:

This was thoroughly refuted as you failed to show anywhere in Rev 7 John has a rapture in view, thus the conclusion was "continuous" seems to be a foreign concept to you.

Sorry, but it has continually gone over your head: Paul gives us this timing in 1 Thes. 5. We don't really NEED confirmation from Revelation. 

 

52 minutes ago, inchrist said:

As we can see the pretrib trend, pay no attention to the origional greek kione meanings, hijack the origional meanings and give it the opposite spin on them.

 

This is a theory, but it is really not true. Apo has a meaning clearly laide out in Strongs, but you simply won't believe it.

 

53 minutes ago, inchrist said:

And pronouns must refer to the proceeding verses to identify the restrainer and no where is the Holy Spirit mentioned or alluded to.

in a way, You are alluding to the Holy Spirit! When one recognizes that Paul is speaking of the CHURCH and then one uses common sense to know it takes GOD's power to restrain Satan, it is not so difficult to end up with the Holy Spirit. HE is the POWER behind God's kingdom.  You seem to have agreed that if there are enough people falling away, then the man of sin can be revealed. So what is it about many falling away? Do THEY in themselves have the power to restrain Satan and hold down the revealing? In fact, do they have the wisdom to know the proper time for the revealing? No, ONLY GOD knows that. So the church can either fall away and allow the revealing or they can be caught away. Which of these is the theme of this passage?

 

58 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Please pull up all lexicons that states the word "gone" in the meaning of

Please look at all English translations that are in existence. According to you they are all wrong. How funny!  it is really very simple: if something is out of the midst, it is GONE. Several translations use this English word.

" 1096 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another."

The first "condition" is the church is here in the midst of the world population.

the next condition is the church NOT here in the midst. And it will happen instantly - so instantly that it will seem that the world did not move or was stationary.

" 1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, "

When the church is raptured, will it not be a change of place and a change of state?

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

As stated this is the symptoms of pretrib...hijack the word and give its own invented meaning.

Only in your imagination.  You are really going to be shocked soon when the church disappears and you are left standing.

 

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

 “These things”  of verse 15 could easily include the falling away of verse 3. 

Yet, in his first letter, we find the rapture teaching but NO FALLING AWAY teaching.

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Zechariah 14  Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

 

Yea, that's not the Second Coming where Jesus destroys all his enemies via the Holy Spirit by speaking the victory into existence. 

The Day of the Lord is a 3.5 Year event, it starts with Jerusalem being conquered by the Anti-Christ/Beast and ends with the Battle of Armageddon. Both happen on the Day of the Lord, one starts it and one ends it. So the Anti-Christ and his Hordes overrun Jerusalem and its inhabitants, they then rule it for 3.5 Years. Then Jesus shows up. So Jerusalem is not attacked when Jesus comes back, that's because everyone is gathered at Armageddon. Of course when Jesus speaks all the Anti-Christs people will die everywhere, the Holy Spirit has no bounds. But 

[Pudgenik]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 2:27 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

Okay, if you say so, but I can't see how any of the scriptures you cited point to a pre-trib rapture, not a single one.  That theory is on the chopping block, and will be the first one proven false.  

Cheers

This is the problem with unproven theories. Pre tri rapture, among other philosophies are preached without challenge.

Just look at how the Jews were demonized before WW2 . It was taught in the Christian churches in Germany. Seems that facts like this are erased from our history books.

There are many who claim to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, yet you can ask people, all claiming the baptism, from different Christian walks of life, and there will be differeant answers. 

It is the same Spirit, why then different answers.

I say let the chips fall where they may. Only be clear on one thing, that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. And love God with all you are.

[Pudgenik]

On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 8:55 PM, rollinTHUNDER said:

Matthew 24:45-51 – “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? ⁴⁶ Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. ⁴⁷ Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. ⁴⁸ But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; ⁴⁹ And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; ⁵⁰ The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, ⁵¹ And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
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The parable above provides another view of the hot and lukewarm from yet another perspective.  The faithful/wise servant (hot) will rule of over His household, and be given meat in due season (wedding supper).  Now verse (46) is often overlooked, but it is a very powerful nugget, as it tells what He will be looking for in His faithful servants.  He’s looking for doers, not just believers or hearers only.
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Luke 12:42-44 – “And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? ⁴³ Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. ⁴⁴ Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.”
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This is where the rubber meets the road.  We see the faithful servant being rewarded in the passage above.  But now let’s take a look at what happens to the servants that are not ready or unworthy when He comes for them.  Notice in the passage below that it says they will be left with the unbelievers, and also notice that there are two punishments, one more severe than the other.
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Luke 12:45-48 – “But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; ⁴⁶ The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. ⁴⁷ And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. ⁴⁸ But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
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The elect will be Christ’s chosen when He returns, as they are His faithful and wise servants.  The lukewarm will not be ready, so they will have to enter the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10), where they will be purified.  Unfortunately, they will pay a very high price, as they will become the martyrs who are overcome by the beast (Rev. 13:7-8).  However, the good news is that their deeds follow them, so they will be rewarded a little later (Rev. 14:13), and they will also return with Christ and reign with Him (Rev. 20:4).  But it’s very important to note, that not all martyrs will be rewarded later, only the ones who are left after Christ appears.  The martyrs that were killed before Christ appears will be resurrected with the dead in Christ (1 Thes. 4:16-17).
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I know, most of you have always heard that the entire Church will be raptured.  I wish that were true, but I can find no scripture to support that assumption.  My view doesn’t tickle any ears, I’m sure.  It’s very sobering, so it’s almost guaranteed not to be popular, which is fine with me, because the Lord didn’t call me to be popular.  But the Lord is telling us, Himself, that only half of His saints will be ready when He appears.  One will be taken and the other left.  And He gave us the parable of Ten Virgins as confirmation, whereas five were wise, and five were foolish.  This is also why the bride isn’t ready until late (Rev. 19).  I also want to point out, that the judgment seat of Christ does not occur in the clouds during the rapture as many believe.  He is already on His throne, and nothing we say or do is hidden from Him (Heb. 4:13).  Scripture says that He will bring our reward when He comes, based on our works.  Again, two will be in a field, one will be taken and the other left…
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Revelation 22:12 – “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
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2 Corinthians 5:10 – “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”
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Matthew 16:27 – “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
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For those who may be concerned that this might be a salvation by works message, you can rest assured that it is not. This is rewards by works.  Salvation comes when we first receive Christ as our Lord and Savior.  But our reward doesn’t come until He returns, as He is bringing our reward with Him when He comes.  I often hear Christian’s say they are ready, but I would not just take that for granted, because Christ, alone, is the judge.
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Luke 21:34-36 – “Take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be oppressed with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and lest that day come on you at unawares, ³⁵ For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. ³⁶ Watch therefore, and pray continually, that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and that ye may stand before the son of man.”
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I’m finished breaking down chapter 24.  I’m not going to go into chapter 25 as I did in my book, but I encourage my readers to continue.  The parable of Ten Virgins and the parable of Talents continue with the same theme, showing the judgment between the hot and lukewarm from different perspectives.  Then at the end of the parable of Talents you will finally read about the second coming.  The parable of Talents is my favorite.  It’s also the most telling.  Here are some interesting notes about the parable of Talents; and be careful not to trip over the stumbling blocks.  Notice Matt. 25:14 likens the kingdom of heaven to a man going away or travelling to a far country (Christ’s ascension); verse (19) but when that man returned He is depicted as their Lord and rewards His servants (rapture); and finally, verse (34) when He returned again, He is depicted as the King returning to judge the nations (second coming).
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The mysterious rapture has been very confusing and controversial for many believers for many centuries. There are several theories about it.  Most believer’s think they will escape via the rapture; some believe they will be martyred, and still others think they will be protected until the second coming.  But the $64,000.00 question is—which of these theories is correct?
Answer: All of the above, depending on the believer’s reward when Christ Returns.
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Three Rewards for Believers:
Hot = Heavenly minded – faithful servant – rapture – wedding supper – saint – great in the kingdom of heaven.
Lukewarm = Double minded – evil or lazy servant – hour of trial – martyr – saint – least of Christ’s brethren.
Cold = Worldly minded – falls away/departs the faith – sheep – mortal – ministered to least of Christ’s brethren – will be ruled over by Christ and His returning saints.
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Matthew 13:33 – “Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

Thanks for reading.  This concludes the outline of my new Readiness Rapture Theory

I felt your piece is well written.

Welcome to the hornet nest.

Yours in Christ, Pudge

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Keras said:

This prophecy is about the conquest of God's holy people, who will be living in all of the holy Land in the last days. Proved by the first word of Zechariah 14:3 = THEN, the Lord will go out to fight....as per Rev 19:17-21.  We see them in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 and the half who 'go into exile' are the 'woman' of Rev 12:6-16, but the ones who remain are those in verse 17. These two groups of Christians are also mentioned in Daniel 11:32. 

 

The Woman is all those protected by God in the Wilderness (Israel, at least the ones that fled as Jesus commanded) the REMNANT are the Church that is on the Earth meaning BODY OF CHRIST that became Christians after the Rapture.

Zechariah is only the Day of the Lord, from the beginning to the end, a 3.5 year period. Notice the Nations gather against Jerusalem in verse 2 and the Jesus lands on Mt. Zion in verse 4. From verse 2 to 4 is a 3.5 year period.

8 hours ago, Keras said:

Re the argument about a pre, mid or post rapture to heaven, this issue is one of Satan's most successful deceptions.  It has been argued about for over 100 years; still no consensus; why? Because the whole idea is false, we humans never go to heaven, Jesus said so, John 3:1, John 8:21-23  Our destiny is to be the people God has never yet had in His Land; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and His light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8  We will continue to be tested, as the prophesies tell. 

 

Paul told us about the Rapture 2000 years ago. Since then Satan has crept ad and lied a a select few.

[Pudgenik]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree that MOST OF THE WORLD today is serving Satan but they don't know it.

I disagree on Muslims. They will be deceived right along will the people from all other religions. Finally all will get to SEE god and see miracles to prove he is god. So a good Buddhist will be deceived right along with a good Muslim and a good Hindu. Satan is not stupid. He will not destroy what has taken him thousands of years to build. He will just deceive them further by turning them all to the Beast and false prophet. And they will all follow as the blind leading the blind. NO ONE can be left sitting on a fence, so to speak. All will be force to choose a side, when the mark becomes enforced.

As we know from Old Testament prophecies, only 1/3 of Israel will be saved. It appears that some are held captive in Jerusalem. But that is only my opinion.

STOP! Just stop and think what you just wrote: you KNOW that God is not mad at believers and CAUSING them to be martyrs! How silly would that be - that God Himself is creating martyrs.  God is not angry with His church. Seal one is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel: and that is God's will. Seals 2-4 will be Satan's attempts to stop the church. If people die, it will be SATAN's anger, not God's. The seals, 1-5 are church history. We are waiting on seal 6 which begins God's wrath.

This book that Jesus Got into His hands: I am CONVINCED it is the title deed or lease document to planet earth: A document that evidently Satan knew about. I am sure he thought if he could get Adam to sin, the world would become his forever. I think he was SURE no one could ever escape from hell to rise again. He was SURE no one would EVER be found worthy to break the seals  and open the book that would spell out his doom.

But Jesus WAS found worthy: He conquered death and rose from the dead. It was absolutely necessary that SOMEONE be found worthy to break these seals, else Satan would remain the god of this world forever.

AS the seals are opened, finally the 7th will be reached, which officially begins the 70th week. And then, finally, the book can be opened to allow the 7 trumpets to be sounded. Always remember, the trumpets are what is written INSIDE the book or scroll, and no trumpet will ever be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. To think otherwise is just not to understand this book.

Why not just believe John instead of coming up with a theory that does not fit? OF COURSE God is angry and His anger will be in the vials of His wrath: that goes without saying. But WHERE does His wrath begin? It will begin right where John tells us it will: at the 6th seal, "the day of His wrath has come." It will be the start of the Day of the Lord. His wrath then will be in every trumpet judgment and every vial.

 

Sorry, but this is MYTH caused by preconceptions. Our church Fathers were not stupid. They put 18 on it because 18 comes after 17, etc. Do you imagine that God was trying to make this a confusion book rather than a revealing book? NO WAY! It is a revealing. It is only human imagination that makes it confusion. You only IMAGINE Armageddon happens in chapter 16. You are very mistaken! Jesus does not return at the end of the week. If so, all would know WHEN He would return. But the truth is, NO ONE WILL KNOW.

The truth is, those events of chapters 17 and 18 will take place BETWEEN the end of the week and Jesus' return.

Your theories are very very far from truth, my friend. God does not get to the harlot until chapter 17, which is AFTER the 70th week has ended. However, the Harlot is about the events of the last half of the week, how the Beast and false prophet will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem.

Rev. 6 is CHURCH HISTORY time. See how far off you are? 2000 years are a LOT of time. Please, my friend, leave Revelation as it is written and just UNDERSTAND it. It is not that difficult if you just take it as it is written. There is NO NEED to rearrange it. ANY theory that must rearrange is simply wrong.

Did it every occur to you that they enter into this agreement by deception? Suppose in the soon to come war, Israel soundly defeats the Muslim nations once again. But world pressure is great on Israel, as always, so the United Nations forces Israel to stop. And a peace agreement is reached where Israel is allowed to have the temple mount to build their temple. Israel may not really know WHO they are making this peace agreement with. However, Satan's man will be in the background somewhere. But Israel will know be wise to this. They have bowed to world pressure over and over and over.

I have told you over and over, this is how Antiochus did it. It is NOT ABOUT Antichrist. However, it is very possible the Antichrist will do it the same way. Satan has no new ideas. He just uses what has worked before.  We really don't know HOW this agreement will come about.

 

Satan is not dumb. that I can agree with. But all Muslims are already HIS: lock, stock and barrel as we say. He OWNS them. He will convince them, just as he will all other people in the world, that the Beast is THE VERY GOD THEY SERVE.  They will happily take the mark. If the truth were known, they may already have the mark.  He will have no need to kill Muslims for they are his already.

 

This is only YOUR human reasoning and millions of believers will disagree.

They will follow a man that proves he is the god of the Muslims. The bible tells us he will deceive the entire world. this will include all false religions. Satan will not destroy them, he will DECEIVE them into taking the mark. This is not so hard to believe, for they are already very deceived.

 

HOW did Antiochus conquer? It is written that it was NOT by his power. In other words, he had supernatural help. His help came from Satan. Without much doubt,  Alexander the Great had God's help.  And this Beast of Revelation is going to have the Destroyer's help: Satan himself. What Did John write? That the world will wonder who could ever defeat him. It is not fantasy, it is scripture.

 

Without much doubt, it will be three Muslim nations that he takes out. Sorry, you have proven how poor your theories are. I will mark JOHN's words.

 

I agree with most of this. But all these are and will be OWNED by the devil. He will be able to turn them in the way he wants them to go, by taking the mark. His goals is for all to take his mark.  They may hate religion, but Satan will show them a god they can SEE. Seeing is believing. The whole word will be deceived into thinking this man is the god of creation.

Being duped into serving Satan is easier than you think. What about abortion. What part of destroying life serves God. 

God/Jesusthe Holy Spirit are all about life. ("All life is greater than any death." Bill Brown) 

Euthanasia, and there are a whole host of others.

Those who vote for these ideas, are they voting with God?

If I recall, Obama care is riddled with anti life and anti Christian support. But they preach it, "for the poor" .

Are you a believer in Obama care, maybe you should go to a Christian hospital and ask them how they are forced to do anti christian practises.

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The Woman is all those protected by God in the Wilderness (Israel, at least the ones that fled as Jesus commanded) the REMNANT are the Church that is on the Earth meaning BODY OF CHRIST that became Christians after the Rapture.

Zechariah is only the Day of the Lord, from the beginning to the end, a 3.5 year period. Notice the Nations gather against Jerusalem in verse 2 and the Jesus lands on Mt. Zion in verse 4. From verse 2 to 4 is a 3.5 year period.

I note your opinions, RevMan.  

Your unsupported opinion that there are two peoples of God, that the Day of the Lord lasts for 3.5 years, and that Paul told us we would be taken alive to heaven. All are wrong and are easily refuted. 

Isaiah 49:14-23  Zion says: The Lord has forsaken me. The Lord says: Can a woman forget her child? I shall never forget you. I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands. Your dwellings are always before My eyes.

Your people will hasten back, while your enemies depart.  Look around, your children gather and come to you. They will be as ornaments in the Land.

Once the Land was desolate. Your enemies are now far away.  The children born while the Land was occupied by foreigners will now say: This place is too small for us.  Zion will say; who bore these children, when I was deserted, where did they come from?

The Lord says; I shall signal to the nations, they will carefully transport My people to their Promised Land.   Kings will be your sponsors and great people will serve and honour you. You will know that I am the Lord, none who trust in Me will be disappointed.          

Zion: The holy Land, forsaken and desolate, Jeremiah 22:6-7, Hosea 4:3, that is how it will be after the next prophesied event: The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, an explosion of the sun, directed at the Middle East that will clear and cleanse the entire area. Currently most of the holy Land is occupied by atheists or false religion worshippers. The Jews will be judged, Zechariah 13:7-9, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Hosea 4:3, Zephaniah 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7

‘the enemies depart, they are now far away’: Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11 tell us how the surrounding nations and entities all hate Israel and want to ‘wipe them off the map’. Those attackers will all be killed, some by their own weapons; Psalms 7:12-16, and the rest of the inhabitants will flee. Jeremiah 49:4-5 & 35-37

‘Your people will hasten back’: A part of Judah has returned, but very few are true believers and they all face judgement. A remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:13 All true Christians are now the Lord’s people. the Israelites of God: Galatians 6:16, Romans 9:24-26, Psalms 24:3-5, Malachi 3:16-17

 ‘The Lord’s people, all those who put their trust in Him’: True Christians from every race, nation and language, will be gathered and transported to all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Isaiah 66:18b-20, Psalms 107, Jer. 23:3-4, Zechariah 9:16 On that Day their God will save them, they will sparkle like jewels in the Land.

 ‘The Promised Land’: will be regenerated and become fruitful. Joel 2:21-24, Psalms 126:1-5

Ezekiel 36:8-12 You, mountains of Israel, put forth your branches and bear fruit, for the homecoming of your people is near.  Isaiah 51:3

Isaiah 35:1-10 Let the desert be glad, let it flower and rejoice!...Be strong, My people, fear not: your God comes to save you with His vengeance and retribution. Then; understanding will be given to all who couldn’t see or comprehend the Prophetic Word.

A highway will appear and by that road, the Lord’s redeemed people will travel into their heritage. His holy people, set free will enter Zion with shouts of praise for their Redeemer. Gladness and joy will come upon them and suffering and sorrow will be gone.

Psalms 48:11-14 The hills of Zion rejoice, Judah’s cities are glad.  Walk about the holy Land, count the towers.  Note the fortifications and buildings, so that you can tell about them to the coming generations. For this God is our God, our guide and protector, now and forever.

Psalms 69:35-36 For God will deliver Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah. The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His Name will dwell there.

Isaiah 55:11-13 You will go out with joy and be led forth in peace....the Land will rejoice at your coming.         Reference:  Revised English Bible, some verses abridged.

 

That all this happens before the Return of Jesus in His glory, is made clear by Isaiah 49:23,

 ‘you will know that I am the Lord’’. First, His people will gather and settle in all of the holy Land. Those who serve the Lord will inherit the Land. All that is prophesied will happen as they prepare for the eventual Millennial reign of Jesus.                      

 

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is just preconceptions created by human reasoning all gone wrong. You see, God spent months teaching me chapters 4 & 5, showing me what the context is for the first seals. You are completely ignoring the context for the first seals.  I have written it before, but my guess is, preconceptions kept you from understanding. Please, take off all preconceptions and be open to learn. Jesus asked me three questions I could not answer.  Yes, I heard what seemed to be an audible voice.

No, just like my warning about following men before, I never follow men's ideas unless they align with the Holy Spirit. I will warn that Satan is a mater at deception. So I always listen for the Holy Spirits voice. When I was a young Christian 30 years ago I remember how I went astray by reading about the England is the Lion and America is the Eagle stuff. So it can happen, you live and learn.

Now I am not going to discount your experience until I have heard in in full. If it align with Gods word I will heed, if not I will not heed, that's my motto on men's studies. Lets delve into your experience. BELOW.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the father, when John saw into the throne room? There are a dozen verses telling you that is where I went to be.

2. Why was I not immediately found in that first search John watched for one worthy to break the seals - a search that ended in failure? If you read ahead, you will see I was found worthy. So why was I not found in that first search?

3. If you notice, the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room in chapter 4. But I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended. WHY is He still there?

(These are abbreviated, but they will suffice.)

This is a VISION, John is being shown that the Lamb, Jesus was our Sacrifice and was thus Worthy to open the Seals. These Visions were FUTURE EVENTS to when John was shown them. You are way overthinking this imho, John said no man could be found to open the Seals in Heaven or on Earth, well that's true, Jesus is God, the Lamb of God, and when the Elder said STOP CRYING John look over there AT THE THRONE, that is where Jesus was, just where he was supposed to be. 

Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Where was Jesus at? In the MIDST OF THE THRONE, just where has has been since ascending to the Father. 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please put this in perspective: this is GOD, the creator of the universe teaching me His intended meaning of these two chapters, 4 & 5. Oh, He also said, "until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this part of John's visions." 

So I struggled for weeks, hours a day, trying to answer His questions. Finally one day, He had mercy on my slow thinking, and sent me to chapter 12 to learn "History lesson." (His words, not mine.) Once I had "history lesson" in my mind, He said I could go back to chapters 4 & 5 again. And in five minutes I had the answers to all the questions.

What then is the intention of the Author in chapters 4 & 5? It is to establish the context of the first seals -  and the timing. What is the right answer to each question?

In my dealings with God we study, seek, study, seek and when God/Holy Spirit deals with us its usually instantaneous, he reveals what He desires unto as at that moment in time. So I don't ever recall, with me God telling me to study, He usually only gives unto us after we seek with all of our hearts, then He just reveals it, BOOM. That is my experience. 

I do read all of your posts, of course I haven't read your answers yet, but one thing we have to understand, it is very Clear the Seals are opened at the MIDWAY point of the Final 7 Year Period. We see that by reading Scriptures, so that can never change. IMHO, Chapters 4&5 are easy to interpret them, IF we do not overthink them, look back and read both quickly without much thought and what do we see? Chapter 4 we see God is Holy and Just in all things and he receives the praises of the whole of Heaven. In Chapter 5 we see Jesus is WORTHY, and the whole of Heavens sings his Praises just as they did to God in the previous chapter, this time they sing Worthy is the Lamb.

So in Ch. 4 God is Holy and Just and in ch. 5 Jesus is Worthy. Then what happens in Chapter 6? JUDGMENT !! God and Jesus is Holy and Worthy, and thus their coming JUDGMENT IS JUST. The Seals are the Anti-Christ coming forth and Judgment of the World stars. The Very First Seal is the first Day of the Day of the Lord. The Very last Vial being poured out 3.5 years latter is the last day of the Day of the Lord.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In all of time, and before time and after time, there was only a speck of time where the second person of the Godhead was not at the right hand of the first person of the Godhead, and that was the 32 or 33 years He was on the earth.  So WHY was He not immediately seen in the throne room at the right hand of the Father?

 

I don't see the bible saying this at all brother, Jesus was right where he was supposed to be. Jesus is not a Man he is God, the Lamb, and he was found standing in the middle of Gods Throne. I think you are way overthinking this, you let one point of emphasis you think you have seen take you on a venture far and wide. This vision in Heaven is FUTURE to Johns life. So, imho, you went off the trail by accepting this over 100's of scriptures that tell us all of Revelation is FUTURE EVENTS.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The answer to #1 is that John was seeing in this vision the throne room of his past - a time while Jesus was not in heaven, but was on the earth.

The answer to #2 is that that throne room of the past was a time before Jesus rose from the dead - for the moment He rose from the dead, He was found worthy. See how this is setting the timing?

The answer to #3 is even more specific: the Holy Spirit was still there because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down. But in chapter 5, Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. So now God has pinpointed the exact time: Jesus told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. As soon as Mary left, Jesus ascended, and John got to see that moment in time, in his vision.

I don't see this at all. You are overthinking this imho. The Holy Spirit Created the Universe and has always been on earth, he very rarely lived inside of men or had doings with men because Jesus had not died yet to purge the sins of mankind, the Sacrifices were every so often, not a Daily Purge by Jesus Blood, the Holy Spirit has always been on earth. Mary was told not to touch him because he had an offering to bring unto the Father, human hands would have defiled that offering. You seem to have, imho, invented a time-line on very a thin set of beliefs that all other scriptures point against. The Anti-Christ comes forth at the MIDWAY POINT, of course you have to move all of that around to make this fit. I am not being overtly critical, we can all go down bad roads, we just have to catch ourselves and rely on scriptures to bring us back to reality. Satan does not stop trying to deceive us.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So these two chapters shows timing and the movement of time. And it establishes the moment in time that Jesus got the book out of the hand of the Father and began to open the seals. No one can find 2000 years in chapter 5, after Jesus got the book - because God did not put 2000 years in there. Jesus got the book into His hands around 32 or 33 AD and began immediately to break the seals. This is not imagination: it is bible truth, written down since John wrote.

Therefore, seal #1 was opened around 32 AD and MUST represent something of that time. To imagine this is about the Beast of Rev. 13 is to completely ignore the context. Anyone can pull a verse out of its context and make it say almost anything.  But it only leads to confusion.

It only shows that if your guess about Jesus in Rev. is right, and it is not correct. The Seals are a FUTURE EVENT. All the evidence points to that. Chapter 5 is a FUTURE EVENT, thus there need not be 2000 years in there. Jesus will ope the Seals at the MIDWAY POINT of the Tribulation, this ushers in the Anti-Christ and thus the Day of the Lord. Seal number one was not opened in the first Century, you have allowed yourself to be taken down a wrong road all because of one or two verses in Chapter 5.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John used the color white 17 other times (if memory serves me right) and each time it was to represent righteousness.  A horse in prophecy probably represents war. So we have a righeous war or righteous overcoming being shown to us. What was the ONLY righteous entity on earth in 33 AD? ONLY the church that was MADE RIGHTEOUS by the blood of Jesus. IN truth, there is nothing else this first seal can represent but the CHURCH sent out with the gospel to make disciples of all nations.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These three ride together. They were limited in their theater of operation to 1/4th of the earth, that 1/4 centered on Jerusalem.

It is not until we get to seal 5 that we see a long period of waiting. Those martyrs of the CHURCH AGE (remember the time is around 33 AD) wonder how long it will be before judgment time. The answer is, they will have to wait until the last martyr of the church age. And that will not be until the pretrib rapture closes the church age.

Therefore the church has been waiting between seals 5 and 6 for the last martyr to be killed. THEN, and only then will it be time for judgment.

A White Horse, even in secular terminology always means a CONQUEROR. Thus the Anti-Christ will go forth to Conquer, of course, and Jesus Christ will come forth to Conquer Evil. You see, mixing up when the Seals are forces you to see this as Jesus even though it isn't. I might add this Seals in the first century stuff has been going around for many, many years, so this has to be tradition of men teaching, you must have heard it somewhere else, even if subconsciously. 

Seal 5, another reason people get confused, these ARE NOT the Saints who died from Jesus' death to the Rapture of the Church, these are the Saints who died during the Tribulation period, the one you are speaking of, the Church that was Raptured are in Rev. chapter 7, they came out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, (2000 Year Period is Greater than the 7 Year period) not the Tribulation that lasts for 7 Years. Rev. 7 is the Church in Heaven. I have heard this all before, many times. Remember I have been a Christian for 50 Years in essence, but over 30 years in practice, I have seen pretty much every angle. 

Remember, one passage in Rev. 5 has thrown your whole understanding down a winding road, one that has been around a long while I might add. Satan can lead us that way even as Christians, I should know, been there, done that, long ago.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All you are showing us is an incredible lack of understanding of the intent of God in these chapters.

 

I am revealing truth. Only a very few think the Seals came in the first century, probably less than one percent. In my experience those types are always wrong because Satan is not blinding 99 percent of us. 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again all you are showing us is that you have very little understanding of the real intent of the Author. I suggest you take all your preconceptions and chuck them into file 13 and start over with a clean slate. By the way, this is not just my opinion here.  That "fact" is only proven to your way of thinking, which is in error.  I don't think it is in order, I KNOW it is in order.

Well you just proved you know very little about Revelation with the Seals Argument brother. The book of Revelation is not in chronological order, that is very apparent. You reply but don't answer the question, how can Rev. 16 END IT WITH ARMAGEDDON but yet Rev. 17 and 18 be real time events?  It is IMPOSSIBLE, but its only possible that Rev. 17 and 18 happened before Rev. 16 ended. When you can solve that riddle get back with me. 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When people have tried to prove otherwise, I see it is only a huge lack of understanding. For example, when you read "it is done" you have one thought: in error. I know the meaning, for God taught me: it is the END of the 70th week. God marked the beginning, midpoint and ending so we would know.

Believe me, the Holy Spirit isn't teaching you "SPECIAL STUFF" that he is not teaching everyone else, when I hear that it always makes me weary of someones testimony, just being frank, and that is with everyone else also. David Koresh and Jim Jones had those SPECIAL UNDERSTANDINGS. The End of the 70th Week is the Beginning of Jesus' 1000 year reign. Not the beginning of chapters 17 and 18.The truth is you can't answer why chapters 17 and 18 come after Armageddon. But I can, THEY DON'T, that happens starting in Chapter 6, just like  have stated. 

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again, it is only your imagination that Armageddon happens in chapter 16. It does not. Neither does Christ return then.  You miss the intent of the Author.  Did you ever wonder why the marriage is not until chapter 19? There is good reason. The Old Testament saints will not rise until the 7th vial. We see that by the world's greatest earthquake. When God raises people who died before the flood, that event will cause this great earthquake.  The marriage must wait until all the righteous has been raised. So the marriage will probably begin shortly after the 7th vial that ends the week.

 

It was Just my Imagination.......Running away with me......Rev. 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. THE Seventh Vial is then poured out and the Evil Minions are defeated.  Of course Christ Returns to defeat the Anti-Christ, but all because you confess Revelation has to be IN ORDER, then this can't be Armageddon, even though it is. The Marriage in Revelation 19 happens at the beginning of the Tribulation, as soon as the Church is Raptured, the Jewish Bride spends 7 Days (7 Years) in the Bridal Chambers. 

Rev. 19 spans the whole Seven Year Period. As per the Old Testament Saints, they are the Bride of God, the Church is the Bride of Jesus. So all of that goes out the door.

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The 7th vial does not completely destroy Jerusalem, and Israel still exists, so the armies that are left are determined to erase Israel forever. Jerusalem is attacked and overcome. And burned. But apparently there are captives being held there, and when Jesus touches down, a way is made for them to escape.  I can only use human reasoning here, because God did not teach me this part of Revelation.

You evidently have your timing off, Jerusalem is not where Armageddon happens. Of course you actually think Jesus is battling against Jerusalem I GUESS since you think she is the Harlot which is just not the case. The Earthquake happens in Jerusalem. That's all the destruction you get from the Seventh Vial in Jerusalem. Nowhere does it say Jerusalem is burned. And it won't be. By this time what you see as happening to Jerusalem, the Harlot (Which it is not) has already happened in Rev. 6, the Harlot (False Religion) has already been Destroyed. Jerusalem is captured by the Beast at the onset, via the Seals at the MIDWAY POINT.

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

My brother, I hate to tell you, but this is all MYTH. John marches through time in a very straight line, from the beginning of the church age, to chapter 11.  But starting with the city being trampled, and the two witnesses testifying, and the woman fleeing, etc, John then has 5 parallel paths to the end of the week. And really, 6 paths because his narrative is like another path to the end as he is shown all these other things.

Already went through all this. 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is myth, from human reasoning. You have a preconception that all religions are destroyed early on. God did not teach me this, so my human reasoning tells me that Satan would not divide himself and lose as Jesus said. He will NOT "destroy" all these false religions he has created. Rather, he will roll them all over into one: all  false religions become one very deceived mass of people, MOST of those alive will believe that the BEAST is really God himself in a human body.  Satan's plan is, of course, to get all people to take the mark and be doomed. I am convinced this is why Satan is pushing a posttrib rapture so hard: he is convinced that if people are left behind, he can get them to take the mark and be doomed. 

Daniel tells us he takes out three kings and kingdoms, but nothing about taking out false religions. He will TURN those false religions by deception, convinced all on the earth (except for a very few) that HE IS GOD.

Not understanding the Seals pretty much throws everything out of balance in your understandings.