Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You mean the "Christians" who became Christians after the Rapture? God allowed Satan to make Martyrs of the Disciples, God allowed Jesus to die. You are looking at death as a BAD THING per se, it is not really death, as you well know, but its life, the scripture says in Revelation, Blessed is anyone who is Martyred from this point forward. The people who were not ready to be Raptured can not change Gods plans. Jesus would never be able to pen the Seals if you had your way, people getting saved every day, God would just have to postpone His plans. If you do not want to go through this TIME OF TROUBLE, be ready when the Bridegroom shouts. 

The Church is IN HEAVEN, only the REMNANT of the Church is on Earth, why have you not figured that out yet?

How can ANY spirit filled believer be so far off? I and John are talking about the BEGINNING of the church age!  We are talking history and you are talking future. Ask yourself again, WHEN DID JESUS ASCEND? When was the Holy Spirit sent down? I have not figured out your theory because it is simply not what the scriptures tell us.

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Greece has not disappeared and Daniel 7 said that the Beasts would all live on for a period of time, even Babylon did, for awhile, Alexander the Great died there. But Rome, Persia and Greece are still around, no matter how toothless they are, the Anti-Christ is born in Greece.  

I don't even know why you write this. In your heart, you KNOW all four dynasties from Alexander were swallowed up by Rome.  Why don't you look at a map of Rome at the time of Christ. See if you can find Greece. No, that land area was a part of the ROMAN EMPIRE. so your theory falls again.

[Pudgenik]

30 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

IMHO a blind 99 year old man should be able to see the Rapture in he Bible, I truly do not even know why people still argue the issue. It's not even a salient point for me to discuss for the most part. 

You can say that, but the Pharisees were no better. Look at how they thought they understood God's plan . They felt they were right up to the end. Even when the miricles where happening. All the signs present, and they still missed it.

[fixerupper]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Please tell me then what YOU think this verse means:

Heb. 9: ²⁸ So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This tells me that if people are not looking for Him, they will not get to SEE him. Not to mention the many times He told us to WATCH.  Perhaps Perry Stone has scripture behind what he says. Personally, I would not take an chances: I would be WATCHING and expecting His coming any day now. I hope you are doing the same.

I do't know what it is with you Lamad but unless you're fabricating something from Hebrews 9:28, you've just debunked you're own theory. Looking for Christ is what we should all do.  You've fabricated a "looking for a pre-trib rapture" out of it. 

Did you notice Lamad?  Maybe you didn't read the passage and just took that one verse out of context...

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Do I need to explain?  You're telling me that, "if people are not looking for Him, they will not get to SEE him."  You are looking for a rapture, that's the problem.  Pre-tribers are obsessed with the thing!

Edited July 7, 2017 by fixerupper

[fixerupper]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God's word is never wrong. Go and study 1 Thes. 5. Paul tells us the time.

He didn't ask that.  You dodged the question.  If people are expecting a pre-trib rapture, a global dictator, a one world government and religion, you'll be waiting forever.  

God's Word is never wrong.  Lamad's word is often wrong because he has accepted the most fabricated, contradictory, deceitful doctrine that has ever entered the church.  Your deceitful brother Tommy will pay dearly for it too.

Edited July 8, 2017 by fixerupper

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are making assumptions that are just not there. You cannot assume God's wrath is PREVIOUS to this statement. To do so would be to say God CAUSED by His wrath, the death of the martyrs. Sorry, my friend, but God LOVED those martyrs. He had no anger whatsoever against any of them.  Neither can you find any trace of anger at the first seal.

You miss the big picture by inferring that its God's Anger that Kills the Martyrs. That is a false dichotomy. God allowed the Dictator, Killing thug to come into power because the World is Evil and deserves what Satan is going to be allowed to BRING FORTH. It is Judgment after all. God did not tell the Anti-Christ to kill innocent Christians, just as he didn't tell the Romans to kill all the Disciples, but the Anti-Christ has to be freed to come forth. That is Gods Judgment upon the men of earth. Those Christians who tarried, unfortunately will have to suffer the consequences of this Beast because they were not ready when the Bridegroom came. God/Jesus is opening the Seals, he is making the Four Horses come forth. 

You do not think the Martyrs STOP after the 5th Seal is broken do you? Jesus tells them they MUST WAIT until their fellow Servants have been killed also. Its the Anti-Christs evil heart that kills the Martyrs. God unleashes the Anti-Christ and he is exactly what man-kind has been wanting, to rule themselves without God, and this villain will murder 2 billion people as soon as he comes to power, mostly Muslims.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The very fact that john and the Holy Spirit used the color white should convince you that this horse and horseman are not evil. John used white 17 other times: each time to represent righteous. It is simply silly to even imagine that in this one instance out of 18 the Holy Spirit would use white for evil.

The White Horse represents a CONQUEROR, and always has throughout Centuries. Study it in depth. Its a fact. Jon used the White Horse Twice. Both times it meant a Conqueror. The Anti-Christ and Jesus.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We can know this is where His wrath begins, because it is simply not mentioned before this.

 

That's just not factual. We are told that the people SAY (With their Mouths) This is the Lambs Wrath. That recognize at THAT MOMENT in time that they are in the Lambs Wrath. WHY? Because this is the First Supernatural Event to HIT THEM, this is Joel 2 and Matthew 24 coming True, and even Rev. 6. THEY UNDERSTAND !! They are in the Lambs Wrath so they SAY hide us from the Lambs Wrath. BUT..........We have been through WW1 and WW2M we had over 125 Million people Murdered in the 20th Century by Tyrants so a GREAT WAR by a Dictator is not necessarily something that is seen as an Act of God, even though it is Jesu OPENING THE SEALS. You can slice it any way you want to, Jesus is opening the Seals, thus he is bringing forth the Judgments on the world, Seal 5 is a Testimony against this world and the Beast/Satan, thus the Wrath escalates, the great earthquake hits, the sun goes dark, the moon turns red and the Stars fall to earth in some capacity, unless these Stars are DEMONS being kicked out of Heaven. 

This is the Wrath of the Lamb, God is symmetrical, he doesn't start his Wrath in the middle of the Seals. The Seals, Trumpets and Vials are Gods Wrath. Other Christians are being slain after the Seals, I will prove it later. So is that God killing the with His Wrath also? You see it doesn't fit.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are completely mistaken, reading into the text what is not there: the Day of the Lord, and the Day of His wrath are THE SAME THING! You have nothing but imagination to think the DAY begins when the church is sent out at the first seal, in 32 AD. How could anyone imagine this? Oh! by pulling verses out of their context. I get it.  John tells us "the day of His wrath has come" indicating to the reader that His wrath JUST STARTED. If it just has come, then it was not before.

The Day of the LORD of course starts with the Seals.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"it says that is when the men understand its the Wrath of the Lamb."

I agree.  But WHAT did these men just see? You seem to be doing just a casual reading: WHY did they say this? They just saw the signs prophesied by Joel and Isaiah TELLING THEM The day had just started. Then, If you study the first trumpet judgments and compare them with the Old Testament scriptures about THE DAY, you would then KNOW the Day started right then. First the signs, then the event, and then PROOF of the event.

I explained above, they saw the Signs, the other Four Seals were just seen as Wars..........As long as men have been around there have been Wars. Thus it HITS them at Seal number 6. Bit all the Seals are the Lambs Wrath.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's read this again; Perhaps you can get it this time: Ask yourself, WHAT TIME IS IT?

Rev. 5: the CONTEXT of the seals:

Rev. 5 is after the Rapture, the Church is in Heaven, of course, the Church age ends in Chapter 3.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No 2000 years between these two verses: Jesus got the book into His hands around 32 AD.

I won't waste space with the remaining verses: but I can assure you, there is no 2000 years there. God did not put it there, because the first seal is to represent something from 32 AD: the CHURCH.

We all know the scriptures were not written with chapters. But SOMEONE added them. And just as I said, they added chapter 18 after chapter 17 because that chapter followed the other in the Greek manuscripts.  We all know this. My point was, John wrote it in this order and you have no right to change it. It is silly to change it because it makes perfect linear sense as written.  The events of chapters 17 and 18 will FOLLOW in time what will happen in chapter 16.

You are right, Jesus is opening the First Seal after the Rapture, at the Midway point of the Tribulation, thus the Anti-Christ comes forth on the Day of the Lord. Read Zechariah 14 again, verse 2 is the Day of the Lord, the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem, the in Verse 4 Jesus lands on Mt Zion. 

It doesn't matter if they followed or not, its irrelevant, Revelation is not in chronological order. After Rev. 16 IT IS DONE. You are just seeing more detailed events of things that have already passed. 

Rev. 16 has to be the End, it elementary really. 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is complete myth, without any possible scripture behind it. Where did you come up with this figure? Did you just ad lib it?

1. White Horse = Anti-Christ. 
2. Red Horse = Anti-Christ takes peace from the Earth/MAKES WAR.
3. Black Horse = Anti-Christ wars bring Famine and Starvation with Judgment.
4. Pale Green Horse = Anti-Christ end Results bring Death and Disease. 

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell(Grave) followed with him. And power was given unto them over the FOURTH PART of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The World Population now stands at 7.5 Billion. By the time this happens it will be 8 Billion or more, no doubt. What is 1/4 of 8 Billion? That would be 2 Billion peoples. The Anti-Christ is responsible for around 2 Billion people. If a Billion Christians are Raptured, that could go down a wee but to maybe 1.8 Billion or maybe a tad lower, the point is the Anti-Christ kills close to 2 Billion people. And I never make up stuff out of thin AIR....Its thick Holy Spirit Air.....SMILE.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John does not even get introduced to the harlot until chapter 17, and you have her appearing in chapter 6. And then you create murders out of thin air.  This is just human imagination gone wild. I hope you know: teachers are to be held to a higher standard.

On 7/6/2017 at 5:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 16 ends it. You are seeing Visions that cross each others paths. You are seeing a Myriad of visions. Not a straight line of time as you suppose. The 2 Billion people that the Anti-Christ kills is what STOPS these other False Religions from existing, the Anti-Christ kills off all resistance when he takes over, he doesn't wait until after Armageddon man. Chapter 17 is All False Religion being JUDGED by God, using the Anti-Christ to d his will, see the verse after the Harlot is Killed off.....Rev. 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Who is getting Judged n this Chapter? And who is Judging?  Rev. 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: {{ The Harlot is JUDGED and DESTROYED. She is no more. The Anti-Christs KINGS kill her off, BUT WHY? The Beast Demands to be Worshiped as God, of course. Islam has to go.......2 Billion people MUST DIE and its not the Church brother, we are in Heaven as you well know, so who is the 2 Billion that's Resisting the Anti-Christ? Islam, of course !! and some Hindus and Buddhists and some Jews and of course the REMNANT of the Church who became Christians after the Rapture. This whole Islam angle is false, just like the Pope angle. }}

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Good question: WHY would you pull verses out of their context? Daniel very clearly said this was about the end of THEIR kingdom.

Look on the map and tell me if you see Greece? All you have to d is listen to Gabriel's words to understand that he is speaking about the END TIMES when Gods Bowls of Wrath at SIN (Indignation at Sin)is come full. 

 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That would be the end of the dynasties of the four generals that took over after Alexander's death. All these dynasties were overcome by Rome before Jesus was born. But you wish to ignore this context and imagine this is talking about our future.

NOPE.....That is speaking about THEIR KINGDOM in the Last Days......Greece is still a Kingdom/Country. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I wonder at the way you read these verses! The "Prince of Princes" in this verse is speaking of the pre-incarnate Christ. OF COURSE Antiochus was going against HIM, for Antiochus was going against God's people.

On 7/6/2017 at 5:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

The Prince of princes is Jesus Christ, this a an END TIME EVENT. Antiochus is nothing man. He was not even as powerful as his father. He destroyed NOBODY via Peace. You are off track man. Let it go. Everything I speak of fits because its of the Holy Spirit, of course long ago I used to go down WRONG HOLES.......I SURELY DID, but I learned from my mistakes brother. GRAY HAIR = Wisdom.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please, take us to Daniel 7 and show us how you arrive at Europe.

The Fourth Beast is Rome, they Ruled via Europe. The Little Horn and the 10 Horns arise out of the Fourth Beasts Head 2000 years later. That would be Europe. The European Union. The Anti-Christ per Daniel 7 and 8 is born in TWO PLACES at the same time. In Greece and in Europe. Well Greece is in Europe. 

Good Teaching Chops.............I answered them all.

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I would say you are UNDER-THINKING this. We have to go by what is said! You cannot refute what John told us:

Jesus was simply NOT IN the throne room in chapter 4. That is the first question He asked me: WHY? Your theories give no answer as to why.

That's just not true, and I can prove it 100 PERCENT. John said they looked for a man to open the Seals in Heaven and Earth and no man was Found worthy. So where was Jesus if he was not in HEAVEN or on the EARTH? So that right there proves you are mistaken. Jesus was SOMEWHERE, either in Heaven or on Earth right? Am I right? So John just missed him, he should have been looking for a Slain Lamb, not a Man. Jesus was standing in the Throne Room the whole time. 

BOOM !!! Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth(SO THIS CAN'T MEAN WHAT YOU IMPLY), was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. {{{ Jesus was not in Heaven hey? Well where was he? He was not on Earth either, nor under the Earth. This proves you are mistaken here, by using LOGIC WE CAN DEDUCE that. What the Angel is conveying is that there was truly NO MAN on Heaven or Earth that was Worthy to open the Seals, but there was a Lamb that had been Slain, who was in the Throne-room that was Worthy to open the Seals. }}}.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, Jesus saw absolutely NOT FOUND in that first search John watched. that is proven by what he wrote, "no man was found." As Jesus put it to me: "that search ended in failure." Again, your theory does not answer this question, or as to WHY the Holy Spirit was there in chapter 4.

The Holy Spirit is EVERYWHERE........he is omnipresent so why wouldn't he be in Heaven and on Earth at the same time?

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Any you totally miss the fact John has shown us: that Jesus SUDDENLY APPEARED in the throne room where He was not a moment before.  Sorry, but I am going to go with What Jesus showed me.

Can you come up with any possible reason God would have had to context the seals with this? I wanted to know. It wanted to know why God thought it necessary to show us that john wept, and that he wept much. He showed me HIS intent in these scriptures. If you don't believe it, that is on you, not me. I say that every word He spoke FITS this scripture.

This isn't the Seals, they start in chapter 6. John wept because he thought there could be no one worthy to open the Seals which bring forth the Day of the Lord, thus Jesus could never return to Earth. Of course John knew all of this had to come to pass if Jesus' Second Coming was to come to pass. Jesus was there all along, like I said, by your own words, if Jesus was not in the Throne room then he was not anywhere, on earth, in heaven or under earth. The Gist is, John was looking for a man, the Vision showed Jesus as a Lamb standing in the Throne Room of God.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are overlooking all the verses that came before this. Neither do you have any explanation: He was NOT THERE in chapter 4. NO MAN WAS FOUND in that first search. The Holy Spirit was there, meaning, not yet sent down.  We cannot pull verses out of context: the context here is the ENTIRE chapters 4 & 5. They tells us a story, but you are just not accepting it. Of course not, because your entire end time theory would come crashing down.

 

I have answered both so no use REHASHING......My END TIME Understanding is Intact.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is amazing: what seems clear to you is nonsense to me. John did not put the seals at the midway point! They come before John even opens the 70th week. It seems then, you don't read the way I do.  Could it be those pesky preconceived glasses again?

 

The Anti-Christ RENEGES at the Midway point of the Final week. Thus the Seals bring forth the BEAST which mean he Conquers Israel. I am passing out knowledge I wish I could have gotten without studying. Take your blessing and run with it. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I can assure you, that is not the way Jesus sees them!

 

You mean that's not the way you see them. Jesus doesn't change.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The main points Jesus wants us to see is a throne room where Jesus is ABSENT. And a throne room where the Holy Spirit is there, when we should think He would be on earth.  There is only ONE explanation as to why Jesus was not there and the Holy Spirit was: it speaks of the only time ever that Jesus was NOT there: when He was on the earth.

 

Again, I have covered this, and answered it. What I stated should put this to rest for good.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Certainly He is worthy, but of WHAT? Of overcoming death and becoming worthy to open the seals (in context). But in particular, we see the very moment Jesus ascended back into heaven. Again, chapters 4 & 5 tell us a STORY, and it is a timing story.   WHY would we need to know that John wept much? Jesus TOLD me: "It shows timing." And "It also shows the movement of time." Think about this: the first words Jesus spoke about chapters 4 & 5 was about TIMING. You should take this to heart. These two chapters take us from some time while He was on the earth, to the time He rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven. And God's purpose of including this in His book was to show TIMING.

 

Jesus was in the Throne room all the Time.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I did not write it: God did. It is HIS book. The Holy Spirit is GOD. But He is the part of God that is everwhere. Yet, what do we read?

 

Come into your HEARTS.......The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. The Holy Spirit had only LED MEN, it had never LIVED in men.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WHERE did Jesus Go? Back to heaven. It would seem then that the Holy Spirit would be sent from heaven.

 

No, Jesus meant he had to be SACRIFICED (DIE) Before they could receive the Holy Spirit.

 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here the Holy Spirit is, just before He is sent down.

I did not invent this time line: it has been here written down for 2000 years. We KNOW when He came: it was the day of Pentecost. Where did He come from? John tells us He was in heaven. That is good enough for me.

The point you are missing is, WHEN was He sent down? Put that time to Rev. 5, for John shows us Him being sent down. That time FITS with "no man found" as in Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind, and be found. And it fits with Jesus not being in the throne room. We have THREE WITNESSES here giving us the timing as around 32 AD. Yet, you allow these three witnesses to go right over your head.

By the way, if Jesus was speaking to you - my guess is you would listen!

Some Bible readers assume that the Spirit’s activity in Scripture is limited to the New Testament. But actually He is just as active in the Old Testament:

1. The Spirit participated in creation (Gen. 1:2; Job 26:13; Is. 32:15).

2. The Spirit gives life to humanity and the other creatures (Ps. 104:29, 30). It is interesting that when Genesis says God endows people with life by breathing into their nostrils the “breath of life” (Gen. 2:7), the word for “breath” is the same word translated elsewhere as “spirit.”

3. The Spirit strives with sinners (Gen. 6:3), which is perhaps related to His work in convicting people of sin (John 16:8–11).

4. The Spirit came upon certain judges, warriors, and prophets in a way that gave them extraordinary power: for example, Joshua (Num. 27:18), Othniel (Judg. 3:10), Gideon (6:34), Samson (13:25; 14:6), and Saul (1 Sam. 10:9, 10). However, the Spirit later departed from Saul because of his disobedience (16:14).

5. The Spirit played a prominent role in the long span of Old Testament prophecy. David declared that “the Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue” (2 Sam. 23:2). Likewise, Ezekiel reported that “the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me” (Ezek. 2:2).

6. The Spirit inspired holiness in Old Testament believers (Ps. 143:10). And Scripture promised that someday God would put His Spirit in His people in a way that would cause them to live according to His statutes (Ezek. 36:27).

7. The Spirit was crucial in helping God’s people anticipate the ministry of the Messiah. For example, Isaiah 11:1–5 is a trinitarian preview of the working of the Father, the Spirit, and the Son, who is the Branch of Jesse. Looking forward to the ministry of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit inspired Isaiah to prophesy: “The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him” (Is. 11:2), inspiring God’s Chosen One with wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge, fear of the Lord, righteousness, and faithfulness. Thus we come full cycle to the New Testament, where Jesus claimed to be the fulfillment of this prophecy (Is. 61:1, 2; Luke 4:18, 19).

The Holy Spirit has always been on earth. Satan can talk to us also, I have went down wrong rabbit holes years ago. 

 

[n2thelight]

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

There is no mystery around when this will take place, for we will know his methods of operation [withholdeth], and the signs, the seasons, and the times of Satan's arrival to earth. If you are in the Word of God and not following these "one verse preachers", you will know when to expect the Antichrist. You will also know within hours of when to expect our Lord Jesus Christ's return. Satan's reign on earth is not seven years because God reduced that time to five months for the "elect's" sake, as Jesus told us in Matthew 24:22. Jesus also revealed that the time is shortened to five months, to John in Revelation 9:5, and 10.

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.

https://www.theseason.org/2thess/2thess2.htm

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That's just not true, and I can prove it 100 PERCENT. John said they looked for a man to open the Seals in Heaven and Earth and no man was Found worthy. So where was Jesus if he was not in HEAVEN or on the EARTH? So that right there proves you are mistaken. Jesus was SOMEWHERE, either in Heaven or on Earth right? Am I right? So John just missed him, he should have been looking for a Slain Lamb, not a Man. Jesus was standing in the Throne Room the whole time. 

BOOM !!! Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth(SO THIS CAN'T MEAN WHAT YOU IMPLY), was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. {{{ Jesus was not in Heaven hey? Well where was he? He was not on Earth either, nor under the Earth. This proves you are mistaken here, by using LOGIC WE CAN DEDUCE that.

How can any one man be wrong on so many things? Your logic fails yet again. Your "proof" is only proof that you don't understand these verses. There is a saying: "everybody gots to be somewhere!" (this is the exact way I heard it) So where was Jesus? He HAD to be in one of those three places. And indeed He was, but you just overlooked him by casual reading.  Do you ever meditate on scripture, praying in the Spirit until you hear from God?

Here is the simple answer you missed. It is written "And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth ...was able to open the book.  This does not say Jesus was NO WHERE! It only says no one was found worthy. If you had listened to the Holy Spirit, you would know, this is telling us Jesus had NOT YET RISEN. He was under the earth, but NOT YET WORTHY to open the book.

Did you ever wonder what the angels who were doing this search was looking for?

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

So it took someone slain, but is that the end of the story? Untold billions have been slain. No, it took something else. Let's see what Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Paul's gospel and OUR gospel and the very gospel through which we will be judged:

³ For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

⁴ And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Not only did Jesus die, but He ROSE FROM THE DEAD, and the moment He did, He was found worthy. So really, what Rev. 5:3 is telling us is TIMING. Why is this so difficult for you? These were the first words Jesus spoke to me: "It shows timing!" I already know: you are not here to learn, you have preconceptions that you are right and everyone else is wrong, so your mind is closed to truth. But it is not too late: you can change!  Believe me when I tell you Jesus Christ, the head of the Church, spoke to me. Our salvation was not assured UNTIL Jesus rose from the dead. Those angels doing this search were seeking  A MAN that died and then rose again under His own power: as Jesus said, " . I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

So again you are wrong, but will never admit it. Jesus was indeed SOMEWHERE, but had not yet become worthy. This could have been while He was in hell. It could have been just before He died. It does not matter the exact time, for that exact time is given when He was found worthy, and then ascended back into heaven.

The MAIN POINT OF CHAPTERS 4 & 5 IS TO SET THE TIMING FOR THE FIRST SEAL!

You you ignore the intent and purpose of Our Lord and attempt, through human reasoning, to come up with your own purpose.

Edited July 8, 2017 by iamlamad