Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, fixerupper said:

You say that because the words of Jesus clearly debunk a pre-trib rapture, so you've created another rapture and another return of Christ to fix that contradiction!  You guys even say the last trump isn't the seventh trump, and have even changed the meaning of "the day of the Lord!" Fabricating stuff like it's going out of style and you just don't care.  Why?  Because you guys would have to admit you're wrong and the words,"I was wrong" is seldom found in a Christian's vocabulary.

You are free to imagine this if you choose. The truth is, Jesus would not and could not disagree with Paul, for HE GAVE PAUL his revelation. They must therefore agree - and they do. But only if the gathering after the trib is not the rapture. Indeed, if one studies it, they discover it cannot possibly be: it gathers from the farthest parts of heaven to the farthest parts of earth. Paul's rapture gathers only from the earth. Next, Paul is clear that his rapture will come before the DAY and as the trigger for the DAY, so cannot possibly be the gathering shown in Matthew 24. However, you should know this: you don't get this understanding with a casual reading. It takes meditation of the Word. Anyone can just read Matthew 24 once and declare the rapture will be posttrib, but they would be wrong.

[Pudgenik]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Of course you know, God could have made this very plain, but it seems He chose not to. My only suggestion is that you first DON'T bypass Acts 1 and 2, then you mediate on Paul's rapture scriptures. God has always communicated with people, and He has not changed. In fact, Jesus said that He would build His church on revealed knowledge, the very way that Peter KNEW Jesus was the Christ. 

Next, you should know, God is always very actively at work keeping church doctrine straight for those who will listen. He pulled the church out of the dark ages by revealing truth to men like Martin Luther. He is still VERY capable of keeping doctrines in line with His word. He taught me, and I learned, because I spent a long time (years) reading and meditating on Revelation and other end time scripture, NOT TRYING to use human understanding at all. In fact, just the opposite: I told God I would come with an open slate, knowing NOTHING unless He taught me. So I laid aside any preconceptions and waiting on Him. It took 3 years before He spoke. I had probably read Revelation hundreds of times be then.  What I learned was that GOD is pretrib. It is not guess work to know. In 1 Thes. 5, Paul tells us the timing; but you won't get it with casual reading.

You can get pretrib from 2 thes 2, also, but again not with casual reading. So many over the past years have just read Matthew 24 casually and determined without further study that that gathering was the rapture. It seems, God cannot have a gathering without people jumping on it with both feet, declaring it must be the rapture!

Pretrib is not pretrib out of fear: pretrib is pretrib because of Scripture. Some people put a lot of weight on ONE SCRIPTURE, such as Matthew 24. It is wiser to put equal weight on all end times scriptures.

Therefore, I hope you will end your concern. Just be ready and watching for Him, as if He could come NOW.

 

The Lord has given to me a job to do. I will remain.

With your readings you need to include all that is pleasing to God. Only the humble of heart will be called. Some catholic prophesy refer to this day as "the great miricle".

[iamlamad]

Just now, Pudgenik said:

The Lord has given to me a job to do. I will remain.

With your readings you need to include all that is pleasing to God. Only the humble of heart will be called. Some catholic prophesy refer to this day as "the great miricle".

It is VERY doubtful that God would give you a "job to do" supposedly during the 70th week, when HIS plan is that all who live Him will be removed to safety during that time. He will have His people still on earth, starting with the 144,000, and later the two witnesses.

[Pudgenik]

18 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is VERY doubtful that God would give you a "job to do" supposedly during the 70th week, when HIS plan is that all who live Him will be removed to safety during that time. He will have His people still on earth, starting with the 144,000, and later the two witnesses.

As you have said. The answer is in your own words

[firestormx]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

No, not at all. The Joel 2 signs for the DAY line up with the 6th seal signs. The Joel 3 signs line up with the Matthew 24 signs. These are two different signs for two different purposes: the first is the sign for the coming Day of the Lord. The second sign will be the sign for His coming. These two will be over 7 years apart.

When Jesus comes, as shown in Rev. 19, there will be DARKNESS around the planet. His coming will be as lightning lights up the sky. HOW darkness? Because the sun, the moon and the stars will be DARK. This is simply different than a blood red moon that does reflect the sun's light, meaning the sun is still visible. For example, this sign, for the coming of the Day, could be eclipses.

Thank you for taking the time to answer, we discussed this a bit much earlier in the thread. I just wanted to emphasize the Joel 2 verse. In the Joel 2 verse, you have the Bible/God saying clearly that these events must take place BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. That is important.    Yet so many never even bring up this verse and where it falls or fits in with Matthew 24 and Revelation. Where it fits in is important because everything before this event is BEFORE the Day of the Lord. In following this thread and reading every post I just was hoping to encourage the use of these verses in the conversation. These verses are important in getting the proper timeline for the end time events. Thanks for indulging me and answering this again.

[fixerupper]

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You are free to imagine this if you choose. The truth is, Jesus would not and could not disagree with Paul, for HE GAVE PAUL his revelation. They must therefore agree - and they do. But only if the gathering after the trib is not the rapture.

That's a complete contradiction.  I'm the one saying Mathew 24 and 2 THes. 2 are the same.  You actually say Jesus and Paul agree! "But only if the gathering after the trib is not the rapture."  You can't see that you've just imposed you're pre-trib criteria into your interpretation? Jesus says the gathering happens after thr trib.  Paul says it happens after an apostasy and the man of sin is revealed.  EVERY DETAIL ISN'T GOING TO BE MENTIONED BY EVERY AUTHOR. There are no contradictions between Jesus' and Paul's words.  You guys are ones who created them.

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Indeed, if one studies it, they discover it cannot possibly be: it gathers from the farthest parts of heaven to the farthest parts of earth. Paul's rapture gathers only from the earth. 

WOW!
That's senseless Lamad and you just can't see it. Let's see.  "The gathering Jesus mentions gathers Christians from the farthest parts of heaven to the farthest parts of earth. Paul's rapture gathers only from the earth."
The sad thing is that you're for real.   

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Next, Paul is clear that his rapture will come before the DAY and as the trigger for the DAY, so cannot possibly be the gathering shown in Matthew 24. 

You have the wrong definition of the day of the Lord.  You guys had to change the meaning of it by saying it begins at the beginning of the tribulation period.  You fabricated that because in 2 Thes. 2 the gathering, the parousia, and the day of Christ all happen together.  

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However, you should know this: you don't get this understanding with a casual reading.

I know.  Pretirb is one very complicated thing.  And Jesus and Paul made it so simple!  And I've found in the years I've been doing this that the most simple and logical interpretation is usually the correct one.  

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It takes meditation of the Word. Anyone can just read Matthew 24 once and declare the rapture will be posttrib, but they would be wrong.

A child could read Mathew 24 and easily get it right.  What about Jesus?  Would he be wrong? He's the one who said the gathering of Christians happens after the tribulation!  It doesn't take meditation to figure that out. Common sense is hardly required.  A willingness to accept what you read IS! It does take plenty of fabrication to change Mathew 24.  Like create two returns of Jesus, two raptures, a different meaning of God's elect and Day of the Lord, a different trumpet than the last trump, a removal of the holy spirit. You say the Rapture is not part of the Second Coming even saying the Mystery of God is not Christ and the Church. etc. etc.  It's endless Lamad.  

Edited July 9, 2017 by fixerupper

[Revelation Man]

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

OK, WHERE IS HE?

 

Answered..........If I were you I would drop this line of thought. I totally proved the error of your reasoning's.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you are living in dream land again with this post. John was told to write history, present and future things. This part of His vision was history. You KNOW that when Jesus ascended it was before 95 AD.  Surely much of Revelation is future even to us today. But this revelation was given in 95 AD. The church was less than a hundred years old. When you get to heaven, you will find that the seals  - all but 6 & 7 are history. In fact, many people have realized a parallel between the first seals and the first part of the Olivet discourse - the very discourse where Jesus said, "the end is not yet," showing us he was still talking about church age stuff.

For starters he is told to write what he has SEEN (AS IN VISIONS) the things that ARE (Seven Churches) and the things which shall be HEREAFTER (FUTURE). The seen was not past, but meant to imply VISIONS that he has seen. After the Seven Churches, everything else is FUTURE.......So Jesus tells John write down the Visions, write down my message to the Seven Churches which ARE now Seven Churches in Asia Minor.....Then John is transported to FUTURE EVENTS.....ALL OF THEM ARE FUTURE, the bile says so.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER (FUTURE). 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

This isn't Rocket Science, everything after chapter 3 IS FUTURE EVENTS. 

As for the "End is not Yet" in the Olivet discourse, you have that confused. That was speaking of course about Jerusalem and the Temples destruction, Jesus warned the disciples not to come back when they heard the Wars and Rumors of War, because people would be saying that the Messiah has returned to save them from Rome, he was telling them do not believe in the fake christ claims, even though its true I will come back and save Israel that will not be at this time, THE END IS NOT YET....Then Jesus goes onto tell about a 2000 year period between the Destruction in 70 AD and the Rapture. 

 

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

If the antichrist comes forth at the Midway point (and he does), why do you teach that the first seal is the antichrist? It cannot be both. Indeed, it is NOT both: the 1st seal is not the antichrist, never has been and never will be: it is the CHURCH sent out around 32 AD - you know, right when Jesus ascended into heaven: that same year! So if you claim the first seal as the antichrist, it is YOU moving things all around to make them fit. My end time scenario leaves Revelation exactly as written. Any correct theory will.

Because that's what it is. The White Horse with the Wreath for a CROWN is the Anti-Christ, the Red Horse is him taking Peace from earth via War, the Black Horse is Famine he's created and the Pale Green Horse is Death and Sickness. All coming forth when the Anti-Christ comes forth. Everything past Rev. 4 is FUTURE EVENTS. All this stuff and your timing is just way off brother. Revelation is not in Chronological order, that's the way it was Written.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

You can imagine they are future, but you will find out differently. You still amazing me: John's saw this vision in 95 AD, and it was about events when Jesus ascended, when He got the book and began breaking the seals, and you imagine it is FUTURE against every word of these chapters. Sorry, but Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down around 32 AD. No amount of disagreement with change that fact.

 

Everyone understands they are FUTURE except preterists, and they are a vast minority. No, you imagine its about events when Jesus ascended. Again, everything is centered around one or two verses in chapter 5 which I have already proven are nonsensical conclusions. Jesus was not in the Earth or Under the earth either. Meaning the SEARCH never missed him, the SEARCH was looking for the wrong thing, a man instead of a Lamb of God who was in the Throne room the whole time. You can't allow single verses to throw your whole understanding of things off. The Holy Spit has always been on earth, Jesus sent it into men's Hearts by dying on the Cross, but he had to GO OFFER THE OFFERING TO GOD FIRST, else we still could nit receive the Holy Spirit, we had to be purged with the Blood of Jesus first. 

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

It is the right road, and it is because Jesus Christ, the head of the church, spent 2 months with me teaching me. (I was slow). And it is not only two verses, it is the entire two chapters. Every verse must stay in its context. And the context is 32 AD.

 

Jesus doesn't teach ONE PERSON ONLY things that He doesn't teach to others also. This is the first sign that you are not hearing from the Holy Spirits voice. I see way to many people with "Special Understandings". Everything has to fit with the Word of God.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but wrong again: JESUS taught me this. I heard His voice and His words.

WHO OWNS this world currently? Have you forgotten that Satan is the god of this world? Do you imagine that he would just step aside and allow the gospel to go freely? That is dreamland! People DIE taking the gospel to new places. It has always been. Satan faught Paul tooth and nail, so to speak, but GRACE was sufficient, and Paul conquered and overcame. OF COURSE the church would have to conquer and overcome to get the gospel out.

I suspect the seals for the church age has been around since John wrote, for it is TRUTH. But how long as the theory that the first seal is the antichrist? I doubt if you can find anything in the first century.

The Seals are future events brother. You need a be reboot on this stuff brother, start over.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

What a strange theory, when John does not open the 70th week until chapter 8. Not to mention the first 4 seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.  See where imagination will lead people? We must stay close to the text as written. Jesus got that scroll into His hands in 32 AD. That is what John showed us.

But, since you insist, use a little common sense: all the Jews knew about Daniel's 70th week. And my guess is, they knew it was a 7 year period of time. So please tell us, if they were 70th week martyrs, why would then even bother to cry out and ask how long? They would KNOW they had only 7 years or less to wait. Sorry, your theory is not scriptural nor is it even common sense.

I deal in truths and the Holy Spirit, not theories. If its a Idea of mine I say so, there are things I have never been taught by the Holy Spirit. But these things are not them. The 70th Week is a SEVEN YEAR PERIOD, the Church is raptured, then the 70th Week begins, after 3.5 Years the Anti-Christ conquers Israel/Jerusalem and turns into the 42 MONTH BEAST. That is the very First Seal. All of thet chapter 5 stuff is imaginations. 

The Martyrs are the REMNANT (Christian Church), unrepentant Jews will not be counted as Martyrs, Jews that repent will not be killed, they will be protected in the Wilderness. The Martyrs want VENGEANCE on those people ON EARTH (Present tense).

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

You are mistaken: because you have not understand chapter 5, all your theories are off. The church is now waiting on seal 6. Common sense should tell you this: it is JUDGMENT and it will come right after the rapture, as Paul told us. You imagine judgment beginning when the church was sent out! No, this is the age of GRACE and judgment will not come until the age of GRACE ends.  Preconceived glasses can really be thick.

 

Rev. 5 is a FUTURE EVENT. 

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

You can be wrong if you choose to be. Jesus spoke: I heard His voice: He told me that I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked, and then told me HOW to find it. You can be sure, the 70th week is marked by 7's. You want it to start with the first seal. Jesus told me it will start with a 7. I discovered it was the 7th seal. And it will END with a 7: the 7th vial.

 

I don't think it was Jesus. It happens.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

You imagine something far different than the intent of the Author. It is the 70th week that has finished.  NOT ARMAGEDDON! Only your imagination puts Armageddon here. It is only the end of the week, not the end of the war.
 

Of course I can answer why chapters 17 & 18 come after chapter 16! God WROTE IT THAT WAY!  ;-)

The truth is, Jerusalem still stands after the 70th week has finished, and the Beast is probably still there.  She has been hit with a terrible earthquake, but many are still alive in the city.  I see no need to attempt to rearrange John's book. It is correct as written. How silly to have a theory that requires rearranging, when one can find a theory that fits it as written. ArmageddonYou only  comes in chapter 19, which will probably be a month after.

Rev. 16 clearly calls it Armageddon. The 70th Week is Seven Years. It ends at Armageddon, and Jesus Christs 1000 year Reign begins. Rev. 17 is the Harlot (False Religion) being Judged by the Anti-Christ in chapter 6. Rev. 18 is the Seals, Trumpets and Vials coming against Babylon/World Governments/The Statue.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

You only say that because you don't agree. And that is OK. You can be wrong. It is NOT very apparent that Revelation is not in timing order. It is quite apparent to me that it is in perfect order. The impossibility is that the battle of ARmageddon is hidden somewhere in chapter 16!  It is only the GATHERING of the armies. The battle cannot come until Jesus comes, and that is LATER.

I used to think that chapters 17 and 18 were a close up view of the destruction caused by the earthquake. I changed my mind. 

Rev. 14, 16 and 18 is the SAME EVENT.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Chapter 17 shows the TEN kings that will throw in with the Beast for "one hour." That probably represents the small time that these two chapters will take up: maybe a month, maybe less. It will take some time to get the armies of the world moved to Israel.

 

It represents 7 years, the Anti-Christ makes a Seven Year Deal, he has to be a RULER by that time.  He becomes a Beast at the 3.5 Year Mark of the deal so its possible the Kings come on board at this point in time or just before.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, WRONG AGAIN: There is NO CHRIST in your theory! He is not to be found in this chapter. I know why: He does not come until chapter 19, some time in the FUTURE.  Now, read very close: "he gathered them together..." Do you see a battle? No, there cannot be because Jesus does not get here until two chapters later.

 

Jesus Fights the Battle at Armageddon man. Come on, its not Jesus even though it is, just because it doesn't fit your timeline.  Armageddon is the Battle, BABYLON FALLS. 

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

AGain myth: there is not even ONE HINT of such a theory. It seems you pull theories as if out of a hat - probably a proverbial hat.

Do you just not read? Perhaps you were going from memory as I do at times. 

19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

² For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

After what things? Of course, after all the previous chapter things. But notice, this is AFTER the whore has been judged, so AFTER chapters 17 & 18. See how simple this is if we just read it as it is written?

Christians are Raptured to Heaven where the Marriage takes place. The Jewish Bride and the Bridegroom stay in the Marriage Chambers (Heaven/Fathers Mansion) 7 days (7 YEARS). So the Bride Marries the Lamb as soon as she is Raptured !! Then the Bride returns with Jesus Christ. After OTHER VISIONS.............I can have a Vision about something that happens 10 years from now and AFTERWARDS have a Vision that happens tomorrow. You see how you fail to use logic? The Scriptures tell you clearly when the things come to pass yet you wan to use simple verses and words, that's not the way to interpret scriptures, its line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. So because he had this Vision after other vision that means it can not be about the whole seven year period that the Church is in Heaven.

 

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

No, not out the door. They are DEAD DEAD DEAD and will need to be raised from the dead, before the marriage. That was my point. You made a good sidestep.

On 7/6/2017 at 4:35 PM, Revelation Man said:

The Bride of God is Israel. The Bride of Christ is the Church. Go read the Old Testament, God stated they were His Bride.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:21 PM, iamlamad said:

Here you go, back to chapter 6. We are in chapters 17-19! The battle will probably only take seconds! But Jesus will have to be there at Armageddon, in Bozra, and light down in Jerusalem.  I don't know the order. It is not written.
When you keep jumping back and forth as here jumping back to chapter 6, it is useless to continue.

That's because the Harlot is killed off in ch.6. Makes sense then to say so. Read My Revelation, Sequenced thread.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

19 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

You can say that, but the Pharisees were no better. Look at how they thought they understood God's plan . They felt they were right up to the end. Even when the miricles where happening. All the signs present, and they still missed it.

So I guess you must be comparing your misconceptions to the Pharisees. NICE.

[fixerupper]

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In other words, he had ZERO doubt of His revelation.

And you have zero doubt about yours.  Now that you see your theory is seriously challenged, you're claiming divine revelation.  Happens over and over again....

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When one receives something from revelation out of heaven, they just know it. However, millions never spend the time to get revealed knowledge, so all they have is human reasoning. That is why we have so many denominations, all with different doctrine! I guess then, you must ask this question of them, not me.

Divine revelation comes to people who believe they DON'T have this all figured out.  God can't enlighten the mind of someone when it's all made up and unwilling to change.  The only effort you've put into this is accept the entire debacled theory of pretribulationism.

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Both sides of this are shown in Luke 21:36: there Is an escape, but it seems from this verse, many will not take it. The escape is the rapture. While those living in darkness get left behind for the "sudden destruction"start of the Day of the Lord,  those living in the light of the gospel will get raptured and will get to live together with Him.

Maybe a quick review of the context would help.  But I'm tired of spoonfeeding.

Escape:
"to flee out of a place" (ek, "out of," and No. 1), is said of the "escape" of prisoners, Act 16:27; of Sceva's sons, "fleeing" from the demoniac, Act 19:16; of Paul's escape from Damascus, 2Cr 11:33; elsewhere with reference to the judgments of God, Luk 21:36; Rom 2:3; Hbr 2:3; 12:25; 1Th 5:3. 
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Edited July 9, 2017 by fixerupper

[iamlamad]

On 7/8/2017 at 9:51 PM, fixerupper said:

And you have zero doubt about yours.  Now that you see your theory is seriously challenged, you're claiming divine revelation.  Happens over and over again....

Divine revelation comes to people who believe they DON'T have this all figured out.  God can't enlighten the mind of someone when it's all made up and unwilling to change.  The only effort you've put into this is accept the entire debacled theory of pretribulationism.

Maybe a quick review of the context would help.  But I'm tired of spoonfeeding.

Escape:
"to flee out of a place" (ek, "out of," and No. 1), is said of the "escape" of prisoners, Act 16:27; of Sceva's sons, "fleeing" from the demoniac, Act 19:16; of Paul's escape from Damascus, 2Cr 11:33; elsewhere with reference to the judgments of God, Luk 21:36; Rom 2:3; Hbr 2:3; 12:25; 1Th 5:3. 
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

People have been arguing these things for hundreds of years. And it will continue until Jesus comes.  The truth is, the Holy Spirit IS the teacher, but very few people ever learn HOW to get Him to teach them. I have given you lessons on how, but you have choked on them.

One day you will learn that GOD is pretrib. Perhaps it will be when you are left behind. I really, truly hope not. Did you ever notice that in the parable of the ten virgins, only 50% made it in?  Make no mistake: they were all EXPECTING to go in.

By the way, people have been arguing about the GREEK "ek" too for a long time.