Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

become, be; happen, take place, arise...; come into being, be born or created; be done (of things), become something (of persons); come, appear. (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, London: United Bible Societies, 1971, p.37)   

 

All these renderings imply the arrival or appearance of the subject, NOT a removal

 

 The full phrase, ek mesou (ek mesou), translated "out of the way" in verse 7 is defined by the same Greek dictionary cited above as "from, from among, out of the midst" (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, London: United Bible 

 

If we take this dictionary definition of our phrase and use it in verse 7 in place of the mistranslated phrase, we get this rough rendering: 

 

"but the one who holds it back will do so till he appears from among. And then the lawless one will be revealed" (2 Thessalonians 2:7,8)

 

Now explain to me how you get taken out the way from the natural words?

 

Nowhere in the natural word of ginomai do you get removal. You are implanting a foreign concept to the natural meaning of the word.

Actually, almost all English translations show something close to removed or taken or becoming out of the way or out of the midst.  Therefore it is YOU attempting to change what is written. Or would you have us (the readers too) to imagine your Greek is just better than all the rest?

Here are some examples: you would have us believe they are all wrong:

Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.
there is only the one at present restraining it, until he might be gone out of the midst.
but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way,
until the person now holding it back gets out of the way.
only if that which now controls will be taken from the midst;

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Your question violates the exegetical principle which says to interpret the details with a view to the immediate context. 

A good sidestep: the fact remains Paul used TWO genders. And it seems you have no clue as to why.

 

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

If the word is the subject of the sentence, it must be in the nominative case. Since both the restrainer and lawless  are both the subject of the same sentence.  The "second subject" is not really a second at all, but merely renames the first. These two nominatives are equal or convertible.

 

When I get time, I will see if I can find even one commentator that agrees.

 

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

become, be; happen, take place, arise...; come into being, be born or created; be done (of things), become something (of persons); come, appear. (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, London: United Bible Societies, 1971, p.37)  

 

............ means removal? PLEASE Show me where in the natural meaning do you get removed?

Why do you fight so against what is written? If something "becomes" out of the way - that is the way Paul wrote it. If it becomes that after it becomes it IS out of the way. We cannot try to put different words in Paul's mouth, so to speak. Sorry, but I will go with the many English translations we already have.  This may not be the "natural" use of words, but they are what Paul used.

 

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Where do you get removal, come into being is the opposite of removal.

We have to take this word with the rest of the sentence.

[HAZARD]

"Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

Started by rollinTHUNDER, June 26."

 

The Rapture of the Church;

 

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent  of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

 

 

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

Daniel’s Seventieth Week and the Tribulation. Dan. 9:24-27.

 

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “they will be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endevoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31.

 

[fixerupper]

This is it in Greek interlinear...
CLOSE-KEEP ALREADY IS-IN-ACTING OF THE UN-LAWness ONLY THE one-DOWN-HAVING at-PRESENT TILL OUT OF-MIDst it MAY-BE-BECOMING. 

Most bibles may have this mistranslated.  It's not an easy one.  

For the mystery (CLOSE-KEEP) of iniquity (OF THE UN-LAWness) 
doth already (ALREADY) work: (IN-ACTING) only he (only the one)
who now letteth (one-DOWN-HAVING ) [will let],(Not in the text) until (till)
he (it) be taken out of the way. (MAY-BE-BECOMING)

The mystery of lawlesssness is already in action, only the one detaining will until it's/he's taken out of the way.

....or something like that.

I've never seen anything about a departure.  But the word probably fits well.  When someone or something is taken out of the way it departs.  So what's the big deal?

[Babbler]

As soon as people start quoting Revelation and Daniel for prophecy I know they are confused. For Jesus said, he would come on the last day, he will gather the wicked first, then the rapture and on then the earth will be consumed in flames. To deny Christ's teaching is to crucify him again. Charles Nelson Darby's prophetical teaching is denial of our Lord's word.

[Swords99]

19 minutes ago, inchrist said:

All this based on the misinterpretation of 2th 2:7 that you guys are claiming is correct.

Once out of 672 times gives you a batting average of 0.148809 %, not even anywhere close to even 1 percent of actually being correct...

I'm batting at 99.851191 % that you are incorrect.

The meaning of  ginomai (to come into existence) against Your 0.148809% meaning to take away is 99% against your  less than 1% of being correct.

Moreover Paul could of used G1808 exairo which actually means take away/ removal

1Co 5:2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

 

There is a lot of debate on this. But when we look at the big picture, Paul is dealing with the Body of Christ being taken out before this final 7 years of wrath comes in. He says in 2 Thess 2:7.

"…only he who now letteth (hindereth) will let (hinder) until he be taken out of the way."

 The "he" in "he who now hindereth," the indwelling Holy Spirit, is the same Spirit  in verse 6 "will hinder." This hindering work of the Holy Spirit is such that until the Body of Christ is gone, it’s going to be like a dam in the river. And the iniquity is just piling up and piling up,  like a large reservoir.

 If the Holy Spirit is working in the believer today to withstand the forces of wickedness, then as soon as he is taken out, it will be like a floodgate of wickedness that will come over the world. Cant separate the believer and the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Swords99

[fixerupper]

50 minutes ago, Swords99 said:

There is a lot of debate on this. But when we look at the big picture, Paul is dealing with the Body of Christ being taken out before this final 7 years of wrath comes in. He says in 2 Thess 2:7.

"…only he who now letteth (hindereth) will let (hinder) until he be taken out of the way."

 The "he" in "he who now hindereth," the indwelling Holy Spirit, is the same Spirit  in verse 6 "will hinder." This hindering work of the Holy Spirit is such that until the Body of Christ is gone, it’s going to be like a dam in the river. And the iniquity is just piling up and piling up,  like a large reservoir.

 If the Holy Spirit is working in the believer today to withstand the forces of wickedness, then as soon as he is taken out, it will be like a floodgate of wickedness that will come over the world. Cant separate the believer and the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer.

The setting in verses 3-7 is all about the man of sin, what holds him and what brings him on.  What makes you think the one who hindereth is the holy spirit when the context and antecedent is the man of sin?  Christians are implied UP TO verse 3a and that's it.  The holy spirit isn't part of this evil in any way.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3a Let no man deceive you by any means:

for that day shall not come, (parousia) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Believers are NOT part of the mystery of iniquity.  The passage clearly states that the 'parousia and the gathering' DO NOT TAKE PLACE until there's an apostasy and the man of sin revealed. And by all means, don't apply the church or Christians to any of this. This passage, v.3a-12, is all about the man of sin and his followers.

Edited July 3, 2017 by fixerupper

[warrior12]

On 6/28/2017 at 4:19 PM, Revelation Man said:

1. Rev. 16 says IT IS DONE meaning its over. like I have stated many times.

2. Rev. 17 happens beginning in the 6th Chapter, the Harlot or False Religion is killed off. (Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, {CHRISTIANITY Not False of course} will all be outlawed) and it happens when the Anti-Christ goes forth to conquer. 

3. Rev. 18 is Babylon, the "Statue", the Governments of the world, the Nations that come against God and Israel, RECEIVING her richly deserved plagues. So Rev. 18 is happening from the Seals to the Seventh Vial. 

How do you separate the people who makes up False religion and the governments of the world.  Is not people that constitutes both.   You said False religion is killed off, then who are the people that is left to make up the false government.  You incorporate those who do not have religious affiliations like atheist as a form of religion, so if all is killed off , where is the people that makes up or run this government  of the world comes from.   It is a stickler that i am  trying to comprehend from your writings. 

[fixerupper]

Quote

Most scholars agree that the events written in Mathew 24 will be fulfilled sometime in the near future, but, again, an overwhelming majority of them have not included chapter 25 in their study.  The most popular rapture theory teaches that Matthew 24 only relates to the physical second coming of Christ to the earth (pre-tribulation rapture).  The second most popular theory (post-tribulation rapture) teaches that Mathew 24 relates to both, the rapture and the second coming.  And this is where my theory begins to separate from all others, because in my view, Matthew 24 reveals only the rapture, not Christ’s physical second coming to the earth.  It’s not the text that is controversial; but rather, the way that many have interpreted it.  And by simply studying the entire text, one thing I’ve discovered is that verse (31) is key in both chapters.  Matthew 24:31 is the rapture, while Matthew 25:31 is the second coming.  So without any further ado, let’s dive in and breakdown Matthew 24 and I’ll share some other things I’ve discovered as well. 

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Quote

And this is where my theory begins to separate from all others, because in my view, Matthew 24 reveals only the rapture, not Christ’s physical second coming to the earth.

I'm impressed RT.  Such a long series of post and you're trying to tell the forum that Mathew 24 doesn't cover Christ physical second coming when the 'parousia' is mentioned in it?

...and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

COMING....
the coming, arrival, advent 'parousia'
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
...end of the world...is the "CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE."

In the parousia of 2 Thes. 2, both living believers and the righteous dead are raised.  You're 'theory' is a contradiction.
Isn't it ironic that BEFORE Jesus answers the question he says, "Take heed that no man deceive you."
You've been deceived!

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This GATHERING in Mathew 24 includes both the righteous living and righteous dead.  Jesus didn't specify, so NOTHING in the verse implies only those who are living.

Edited July 3, 2017 by fixerupper

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, inchrist said:

ginomai is used 671 in scripture NOT ONCE is it used for a removal....

http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_1096.htm

Go look....

that these stones become bread.

The stones were stones, then a change happened, and they became bread.

There has been, since the day of Pentecost or before, a restrainer restraining evil. But one day a change will happen: this restrainer will become gone, taken away, made "out of the midst."  ginomai ek mesos

This may not be the normal use of this word, but it is the word Paul used.

Bible	ginemai (1096)	ek (1537)	mesou (3319,3326)
KJV	he be taken	out of	the way
Green	it comes	out of	the midst
Greek	1096 ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee} 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being 2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen 2a) of events 3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage 3a) of men appearing in public 4) to be made, finished 4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought 5) to become, be made	1537 ek {ek} or ex {ex} 1) out of, from, by, away from	3319 mesos {mes'-os}; from 3326; adj 1) middle 2) the midst 3) in the midst of, amongst 3326 meta {met-ah'} 1) with, after, behind

Lets take some of these words.

What is the real meaning if we say something like: "becomes" "out of"  "amongst"

We don't know if this "becoming" is done with an outside power or not, but nothing would prohibit this. If the real meaning is the Holy Spirit being the restrainer, then as "spirit" or pneuma as neuter, and Holy Spirit as masculine HE, it makes sense.

Maybe this is not your everyday usage of these words, but Paul put them together.

I still think Paul added "and now you know" so they would really analyze what he wrote. It is as if what he wanted them to think was: "I just told you who the restrainer is, but you will have to think on it. You will have to back up and find something that has become "out of the midst."

12 hours ago, inchrist said:

he (come) out of the (midst)....still doesnt sound like a removal

he (arises) out of the (midst)....still doesnt sound like a removal

Sure it does. Where is your imagination? We are not looking for the way these words are usually used, but how they CAN BE used. If something has come or has arisen out of the midst (suppose the world's population) then is it gone? Has it been removed or taken out the way? YES, if an outside force accomplished it.

 

12 hours ago, inchrist said:

I dont now why you pretend to think you do....paul neither numbers or alluded to the Holy Spirit.

What we are talking about here is Satan's plans for the future. ONLY GOD knows his plans. And ONLY GOD has the power to prevent his plans from coming to pass. Why is this so difficult? It is common sense. It seems it was common sense to many of the translators.  Remember, the very theme of this passage is the gathering, which is a catching away - which is something being removed from the midst - which is "apo" part of a whole being removed. It is absolute truth that the Holy Spirit works through HIS people. If they are removed, then so is His ability to work through them.

Quote:

• The Restrainer is referred to as both neuter (τὸ κατέχον [to katechon] , “what is restraining”) and masculine (ὁ κατέχων [ho katechōn] , “He who now restrains”).
• The Restrainer existed in Paul’s day.
• The Restrainer has been continually and effectively restraining for nearly 2,000 years so far.
• The Restrainer is powerful enough to suppress the spiritual powers of darkness seeking to promote the man of sin.
• The restraint is global.

End quote.

This really limits who this restrainer can be.

In spite of your theories to the contrary, SOMETHING BIG happened on the day of Pentecost: it was the Holy Spirit sent down for a special purpose: to anoint believers - ALL BELIEVERS - and give them POWER: something that was NEW to planet earth. Under the Old Covenant only a few were anointed. God's purpose was to make "Elijahs" out of every believer.

If the Holy Spirit came for the occasion of the church, does it not make perfect sense when the church is removed, HE in that capacity to empower believers is removed also?  It is no wonder millions and millions of believers around the world believe this. It is scriptural and it makes sense.

By the way, what I do know is that the Holy Spirit has empowered ME. No one can have the God of creation anointing not know it. And that too is scriptural. When I am gone, the Holy Spirit's ability to work through me is gone also. That is why I have tried to duplicate myself as many times as possible - making disciples of lost people. That is why My only agenda in life is to work with the Holy Spirit and HIS plans.  This same thought is repeated through the Body of Christ on earth. But one day the body of Christ will no longer be on the earth. Millions of believers think that day could come TODAY.

Therefore I can say confidently that one day, the Holy Spirit will be gone in that capacity that He came for: to empower believers.

Edited July 3, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

Quote

 

We cannot try to put different words in Paul's mouth

 

using the natural meaning of a word is the COMPLETE opposite of putting a different word in Pauls mouth.....what reality do you live in?

We have to use the words Paul used. And we have to come up with meaning for those words that are not made up on the spot, as you imagine, but are shown in Greek Lexicons. Then, the meaning we choose MUST FIT THE CONTEXT. I think many of the English translations we have do just that.